"Reformed" Islam

[Woodrow LI]

Fair enough, but at some point we have to ask how far we should go in order to respect intent over practical reality.

If there are no true Muslims, is true Islam even possible?

The term "True Muslim" is a bit of a misnomer. A person is either a Muslim or is not a Muslim. The question is not if they are a true Muslim but if they are following the Qur'an and Sunnah. We all are imperfect beings and make error and have misunderstandings. Each Muslim has the responsibility to learn from His brothers and sisters and to verify all things they learn.
Being a Muslim is a path of constant learning. None of us will ever live long enough to learn all that can be learned, but we can try.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Fair enough, but at some point we have to ask how far we should go in order to respect intent over practical reality.

If there are no true Muslims, is true Islam even possible?

Ooops, I wasn't clear. I meant if others considered it delusional etc

As there are many reverts to Islam, we do share our exoeriences often

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Good discussion. My personal input is that muslim ummah needs reformation. We should take as our role models the three generation 1) Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, His Sahaba, 2) Tabi'en(followers of sahaba), and 3) Followers of Tabi'en. The reason i say this is that we are to appease Allah our Creator, not the creation. That is my honest opinion. Islamic reformation is greatly needed. As for reformation where we copycat the behavior and thinking of western christians is out of question.
The result of lacking islamic reformation is that we are witnessing apocalyptic groups killing muslims and non-muslims alike.
Secondly it is evident that muslims are behind on different fields of life. Most importantly on the creative side So while iam saying we need islamic reformation, also we need technological reformation. Muslims must not lack behind, they must go back to science, technology without losing faith in Allah swt.

Reformation by removing parts from the quran will never succeed.

[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

As for the misconception about jihad. Let me tell you this. Iam muslim since birth and i have always interpreted jihad as a way to defend yourself. To understand Jihad one must read the biography of prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. The strict rules of jihad is so clear that one would wonder why are the socalled islamic groups not following the commands of prophet Muhammad pbuh?

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 257.

Narrated By 'Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.



Book 021, Hadith Number 010.

Section : Prohibition against Killing Women and Children in Military Expeditions.


Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Abu Bakr as-Siddiq was sending armies to ash-Sham. He went for a walk with Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan who was the commander of one of the battalions. It is claimed that Yazid said to Abu Bakr, "Will you ride or shall I get down?" Abu Bakrsaid, "I will not ride and you will not get down. I intend these steps of mine to be in the way of Allah."

Then Abu Bakr advised Yazid, "You will find a people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves. You will find a people who have shaved the middle of their heads, strike what they have shaved with the sword.

"I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."


The fact that jihad is defensive and not offensive is mentioned in the quran.
8. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the wrongdoers.


Finally we arrive at conquests. That is something all humans have in common no matter their religiouse background. The Romans, Christians, Zoraostrian Persians and every other empire did the same. It is a human nature. Till this day the Americans want to dominate the world. Russians desire the same goal.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

The Quran really only gives five things as to what makes one a Muslim, kinda building on what an above poster said about the issue isn't if one is a true Muslim.

The Quran says one who holds the five pillars: tawheed, salat, zakat, haaj, and Ramadan, are Muslims IE: your brethren in religion.

 

[icehorse]

Which is a "truer" Muslim, a "Mecca" believer or a "Medina" believer?

 

[Godobeyer]

hi all

as I see the non-Muslims whom demanding/want from Muslims to reform their religion, "or Christinized Islam"

as i understand most of the Muslims disagree .

it's very simple:
I can say it's rejected demand of reform Islam like christainity . because Islam is intact

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

hi all

as I see the non-Muslims whom demanding/want from Muslims to reform their religion, "or Christinized Islam"

as i understand most of the Muslims disagree .

it's very simple:
I can say it's rejected demand of reform Islam like christainity . because Islam is intact

I'm not callingtoreform Islam
I know it can't be repaired
Because the Qur'an cannot be repaired
Who wants toreform Islambyfightinghimoffverses
Also verses sex
And also the teachings of hate-
Thisis what I believe

 

[Woodrow LI]

Which is a "truer" Muslim, a "Mecca" believer or a "Medina" believer?

I am assuming you mean the Mecca Surah and Madina Surah.
Both are parts of the same Qu'an. The Qur'an consists of 114 Revelations (books) while Surah (the plural of surat) is often translated as Chapters, they are more like separate books.
The Mecca Surah are the earliest revelations and are therefore for people that had never heard of Islam. The Madina surah were revealed to people already familiar with Islam.
The Madina Surah are to a large extent admonishments to people that were misusing or not understanding the Mecca Surah

 

[icehorse]

Hi Woodrow,

Do you believe that you're supposed to emulate Muhammad? Muhammad behaved very differently late in his career than he did early in his career. I wonder if you believe you should emulate all of those behaviors or just some of them?

 

[Woodrow LI]

Hi Woodrow,

Do you believe that you're supposed to emulate Muhammad? Muhammad behaved very differently late in his career than he did early in his career. I wonder if you believe you should emulate all of those behaviors or just some of them?

That is a very common concept I find many non-Muslims have. That he changed and became militand during the Mecca era. He did not change. It was that Islam had come under persecution. Muhammad(saws) did not change.

Instead of a long winded answer I will just post a link. HERE

 

[icehorse]

That is a very common concept I find many non-Muslims have. That he changed and became militand during the Mecca era. He did not change. It was that Islam had come under persecution. Muhammad(saws) did not change.

Instead of a long winded answer I will just post a link. HERE

And this is where this particular conversational thread will come to an end. I have a "friend of an acquaintance" named Lucille. Lucille is always right, and she says you're wrong.

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm not callingtoreform Islam
I know it can't be repaired
Because the Qur'an cannot be repaired
Who wants toreform Islambyfightinghimoffverses
Also verses sex
And also the teachings of hate-
Thisis what I believe

this is may called believe .

you accused Islam that teaching of hate !!!
don't you notice that you always using hate speach against ALL muslims and their believes .

so who teach you the hate ?

 

[icehorse]

this is may called believe .

you accused Islam that teaching of hate !!!
don't you notice that you always using hate speach against ALL muslims and their believes .

so who teach you the hate ?

Hi Godo,

I think it's possible to like Muslims and at the same time dislike Islam.

 

[Godobeyer]

Hi Godo,

I think it's possible to like Muslims and at the same time dislike Islam.

Hi Icehorse too

i think this is philosofic matter , it's just like i dislike the sun but i like sunlight

it's better saying like this by polite way : i like Muslims and i disbelieve/disagree with Islam (in their belief)

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

this is may called believe .

you accused Islam that teaching of hate !!!
don't you notice that you always using hate speach against ALL muslims and their believes .

so who teach you the hate ?

No, my friend.-.
I love to Muslim--.
I guided her to the fact his teachings only
I speak of Muslim books and learn from other people humbled-.
If you are studying Bible-
Write to us teachings
If any are educated on hatred
Tell usabout it
But we tell the Muslim hate encourages your
And many verses of the Qur'an.
And also I want to tell you-

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

to--godobeyer
To be honest with you
The Bible says(loveyour enemies-the bless your curser)-.
In fact I am a Christian but full-.
I made love to the Muslims
I and my parents and my grandparents-.-
But today in diaspora
Begging from Western countries which gave me a chance for life-
Because of Islam we emigrate-.
I am a native
Indians in America enjoy the advantages of first-class citizenship
But Islam kill native gradually
And expelled in the last phase
So yes I love man-
Whatever the color, whatever his faith
Justdon't like tolieanymore
I will say for the Muslim
Thisyour teachings-.
1. not wrath and not gone astray-.
Is thisloveorhateeducationeducation
2. fought who don't they believe in? s???!?Note
3. the descendants of apes and pigs??!?
4. I think it is our right to say
Theseareyour teachingsthat encouragehatred
Who says moves to speak of books
Freeto hateyou

 

[Godobeyer]

No, my friend.-.
I love to Muslim--.
I guided her to the fact his teachings only
I speak of Muslim books and learn from other people humbled-.
If you are studying Bible-
Write to us teachings
If any are educated on hatred
Tell usabout it
But we tell the Muslim hate encourages your
And many verses of the Qur'an.
And also I want to tell you-

look brother , I knew it !!!that you had motivation (bad life experience) done by some bad Muslims to attack Islam so accusing ALL the Muslims !!!

thanks for share , I am sorry that you imigrate because some bad Muslims .

there is no verse in Quran encourage the hate to abuse the innocent .

you picked a single verse of the Bible as good exemple , btw there are many other verses contracted yours.(love your enemy)

I always say we the Muslims fought the extremists as the West fought the Nazi .

I have no problem to die saving non-Muslims from terrorists (like ISIS).

anyway there is not perfect nation history for all nations , in every nation and religion there were bad person made bad decisions.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

look brother , I knew it !!!that you had motivation (bad life experience) done by some bad Muslims to attack Islam so accusing ALL the Muslims !!!

thanks for share , I am sorry that you imigrate because some bad Muslims .

there is no verse in Quran encourage the hate to abuse the innocent .

you picked a single verse of the Bible as good exemple , btw there are many other verses contracted yours.(love your enemy)

I always say we the Muslims fought the extremists as the West fought the Nazi .

I have no problem to die saving non-Muslims from terrorists (like ISIS).

anyway there is not perfect nation history for all nations , in every nation and religion there were bad person made bad decisions.

Thank you your feeling so f humanity.
But I do not speak my feelings only-logic.
But speaking o f deep-study.
i studied law--and with Islamic law-the
But I couldn't believe it-.
Although belief in Islam was give me great privileges.
First post-.-
History of Islam on terrorismnot only daash
As for violence and war
Yes, Hitler was a Germanic people in nationalas pirations
It did not use Christianity to justify its wars
History books say that Husseini is aldaw Palestine supported Hitler
He wishes the triumph of Hitler
Yes Christian Nations waging war
But they did not say that the Bible or the Torah calls them fighting
Yes, Bush came to Iraq
But he came to Iraq through a formal invitation from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
He came to Iraq to spread democracy
But Bush said the Islamists also tanks
This is the reason in simple r words
We Iraqi Christians have long experience
The Armenian genocide that killed more than a million Christians-.
Armenian-Assyrian-Chaldean-Syriac-----
In the SMIL-Iraq.
The Assyrians were massacred in 1936 and 1948
In addition to daily suffering from interna ldiscrimination
The events of the last end connector historical series 1400 years old
Date of entry to Mesopotamia-.
So I stay away from th e se feelings
I speak in fact thought and Islamic ideology
The reason for all this is the teachings of the Qur'an.
It is very clear-the
Are the teachings you fighting and Jihad
Are the teachingsthatChristiansin Muslim countriessecond-class citizen
There fore we cannot reform Islamic thought
When the thinking Muslim
In fact, religion
When put the exclamation marks
On the function ofGod in paradise
When do you think that God traverses like humans
When does God have a book like humans
Written in one language
Questions make Islamic ideology
Ideology of violence and terrorism.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I apologize for themistakesin thetransmission
Thank you your feeling so f humanity.
But I do not speak my feelings only-logic.
But speaking o f deep-study.
i studied law--and with Islamic law-the
But I couldn't believe it-.
Although belief in Islam was give me great privileges.
First post-.-
We Iraqi Christians have long experience
The Armenian genocide that killed more than a million Christians-.
Armenian-Assyrian-Chaldean-Syriac-----
In the SMIL-Iraq.
The Assyrians were massacred in 1936 and 1948
In addition to daily suffering from interna ldiscrimination
The events of the last end connector historical series 1400 years old
Date of entry to Mesopotamia-.
So I stay away from th e se feelings
I speak in fact thought and Islamic ideology
The reason for all this is the teachings of the Qur'an.
It is very clear-the
Are the teachings you fighting and Jihad
Are the teachingsthatChristiansin Muslim countriessecond-class citizen
There fore we cannot reform Islamic thought
When the thinking Muslim
In fact, religion
When put the exclamation marks
On the function ofGod in paradise
When do you think that God traverses like humans
When does God have a book like humans
Written in one language
Questions make Islamic ideology
Ideology of violence and terrorism.
As for violence and war
Yes, Hitler was a Germanic people in nationalas pirations
It did not use Christianity to justify its wars
History books say that Husseini is aldaw Palestine supported Hitler
He wishes the triumph of Hitler
Yes Christian Nations waging war
But they did not say that the Bible or the Torah calls them fighting
Yes, Bush came to Iraq
But he came to Iraq through a formal invitation from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
He came to Iraq to spread democracy
But Bush said the Islamists also tanks
This is the reason in simple r words

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Hey One-answer,

Your discussion of Jihad is a really good one to pursue. Of course I wish that all Muslims agreed with your definition of Jihad. But the reality is that many Muslims disagree with you. So how would you suggest changing the situation so that over time all Muslims came to believe what you believe about Jihad? This would be an example of reform.

Almost all Muslims agree with the above definition of Jihad. The US supported ISIS etc seem to be the ones that don't.