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Regarding Knight and Itwillend
- Thread starter Poisonshady313
- Start date
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
Certainly.
Jews/Noahides believe that the Messiah will be born in the future of a man and a woman. He will be a human being. Entirely human, just as human as you or I.
Heneni
Miss Independent
thanks!
And according to prophecy written in your own particular holy books, where must he be born? Location? Town? (Which documents would hold that information)
Im trying to understand how ya all will know your messiah is here. Apart from the obvious peace he is going to bring. (When he is more mature i presume)
Heneni
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
I'm not sure if there's any specific requirement for where he will be born.
The Jewish concept of Messiah is much less focused on the person of the Messiah, but on what the Messiah will do. So not much is found about who the Messiah will be. We will know the Messiah by what he does (IE, bringing world peace, universal knowledge of God, the return of the Jews to Israel, etc).]
So to know about the actual Messiah, we'd just have to wait to meet him, because those prophesies that we do have concerning him are about what he will do, not who he will be.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
I have a feeling a lot more info regarding prophecies Jews consider messianic would have been talked about had this debate not gone sour so quickly.
And it is because the debate is over that I say anything in this thread at all.
Doesn't say.
The verse Christians usually point to, Micah 5:2, confirms only that the Messiah will descend from David, who was born in Bethlehem.
And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.
Heneni
Miss Independent
You say christians point to the verse, is there any other book, text, scripture the jews have that indicate something different elsewhere?
Also i do want to ask quickly, before i go on. Is it generally accepted by the jews, that the messiah will be BORN, not come on the clouds therefore. I know that you poisonshady and knight do, is that a general belief then?
Ok...moving on...the text you have given in italics above indicated that that from the clan (tribe?) of judah the messiah will be born. Is there still a tribe of judah? Where are they these days? Do jews still have their births recorded in tribes....how does all of that work?
Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
heneni
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Not that I know of.
Yes.
Absolutely there is still a tribe of Judah... though they don't all know that they are part of the tribe of Judah. There are some that know, because it has been passed down through the generations... much the same way Levites and Kohanim (priests) know who they are... some from the house of David know who they are.
For example, the late Lebuvitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was a descendant of David.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Interesting i didnt know there were still tribes in israel. And that some people still know which tribe they belong to. Is there any way to be sure, i mean can they do a background check to make sure which tribe they are in, or when the messiah arrives do a background check to make sure that the messiah from the right tribe etc... (LOL...sound like an obama birth certificate issue heheh)
Will there be any signs that the birth has taken place? Will it be revealed to a particular priest (levite), any prophecies on that? Or must you all wait for the miracles to start to be sure who the messiah is?
My final question for now is: If there is no way to check that the messiah is from the tribe of judah, how will you know if he is legit? What if, and i dont know if jews consider any of this a possibility, but what if, there are other people that do miracles as well!
What im asking is...how can you be 100% sure that he is the messiah?
I know you said before that you believe he will bring peace, peace to israel, do you also believe that he will make all the nations subject to israel, therefore israel will be the soveign country if you will of the world. That was also a final question for now..heehe
Thanks again......so many questions!
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
No. It's more or less up to the families to know. Most Cohanim and Levi'im know, because there is major prestige for them to keep track of, in addition to special commandments only geared for them. Other Jews, not so much. The only other tribe that is worth keeping track of at this point is the people who know they are part of the Messianic family. More than that, there is no real difference between any other tribe besides a "Oh, good to know" value.
As I said, there are people who know. There are people who are useful roadstops between then and now, so we aren't just thinking about King David.
One person since then from the right family was Hillel, and his many descenants. After the Roman exile, there was Mar Ukva, who was an Exilarch (like a king, but without a crown, as in a "king in exile"), Bustenai (he was raised in the palace of King Yesdegard II, who otherwise had it in for the Jews, and was a contemporary of Muhammad). There was the Ba'al Shem Tov, who is the father of Chasidism, the Vilna Gaon (in the 1800s).
I know a family from high school who knows that they are descended from King David, and if the guys in the family were learned enough, they COULD be messianic candidates. However, they aren't aspiring to such heights, though they very well could.
Nope. It will be without fanfare. For all we know, it could have happened in the same hospital where I was born.
Not especially. No.
More to the point, we are waiting for the activities. It isn't miracles so much that we're waiting for.
It is the education of the masses. It is the idea that Jews will all become Orthodox. It is the idea that non-Jews will all simply think of themselves as Bnei Noah, and not a part of other religions.
It is the idea that Jews will all move to Israel
It is the idea that there will be world peace.
While any of these things sound miraculous, it could happen simply. But the fact that there was a guy from the right family who seemed to be involved with all of this... He will be the Messiah.
That family will be able to point to folks who are known to be of the Messianic family who are their ancestors.
Well and good. Jews don't own the monopoly on miracles.
But people doing miracles is not the sign that the Messiah is there. All those other things I spoke about are signs that the Messiah is here.
We'll know.
Yup.
No.
No. It will be one of many. But many will look to Israel for spiritual guidance.
The more the merrier.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
With the fulfillment of all other prophecies, his heritage will be a given.
No.
Yes.
The total fulfillment of prophecy. There won't be a question or a doubt. When there is a Temple in Jerusalem, and the 12 tribes of Israel are taken out of exile, and men no longer study warfare, and the whole world acknowledges and worships the one true God... the man whom the nations will come to to judge matters between them.... that will be him.
When it comes to the Messiah, there is no partial fulfillment. Nobody is half a messiah. You either are, or you aren't.
Here is what Maimonides says:
"The anointed king is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and Moses our teacher. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy 30:3-5)."
...
"Do not imagine that the anointed king must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign..."
"And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the disperesed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah 3:9)."
"But if he did not succeed to this degree, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "Some of the wise men will stumble in clarifying these words, and in elucidating and interpreting when the time of the end will be, for it is not yet the designated time." (Daniel 11:35)."
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.
Total fulfillment of prophecy.
For example...if the President of the United States wanted to buy a beer, and you know that he's the President of the United States because you saw him inaugurated and deliver addresses from the white house... you wouldn't have to ID him because you know that in order to be President of the United States, he has to be no younger than 35 years old.
A man who is not descended from David and Solomon will not be able to fulfill any messianic prophecy... so to ask the man sitting on the throne to show you the paperwork that says he's from David would be foolish.
I know you said before that you believe he will bring peace, peace to israel, do you also believe that he will make all the nations subject to israel, therefore israel will be the soveign country if you will of the world. That was also a final question for now..heehe[/quote]
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance, and they will come to the Temple in Jerusalem, and they will all worship the same God... but I don't think they will be subject to Israel.
Non Jews will still be non Jews, and they will be free and at peace in their own lands... as Israel will be in the land of Israel.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Isnt this literalistic nonsense?
Cant you read between the lines and see there may be a deeper meanign to these assertions...
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Nope. It isn't nonsense. It is what I pray for most sincerely every time I open my mouth to pray.
Funny, but I actually take those prophecies seriously. Silly me.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
depends....
you can argue being a Jew is about how you were conceived
you can also argue being a Jew is a certain approach to God....
:sarcastic but then literalism rules
:areyoucra
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Your choice....
Literalism is a dead end for me...
The simple fact that Judaic scripture can be read and interpretted in MANY MANY MANY ways...makes the idea of seeing it literaly alone....rather stupid in my opinion. But there...just my view
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Well, yes. A person can be born a Jew, or a person can convert to Judaism.
Your point being...?
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Well...
You can read what Maimonides said, which is probably the most comprehensive collection of understanding of what the Jews believe we are looking for in our Messiah.
Poisonshady brought a partial list. I'll repeat it, because I can.
Here is what Maimonides says:
"The anointed king is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and Moses our teacher. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy 30:3-5)."
...
"Do not imagine that the anointed king must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign..."
"And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the disperesed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah 3:9)."
"But if he did not succeed to this degree, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "Some of the wise men will stumble in clarifying these words, and in elucidating and interpreting when the time of the end will be, for it is not yet the designated time." (Daniel 11:35)."
*********************************************************
There is more to it, but that is a basic beginning. Once upon a time, my boyfriend and I went through all of the Laws on Kings from Maimonides. It was quite an education.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
What about anyone being resurrected? Do you believe in that at all? Like David, or any of the other saints and prophets.
If so, how can this planet hold all the people that will live forever more?
I am not sure how you view resurrection, so forgive the question if it does not pertain to your beliefs.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Thank you all for answering my 100 questions! HEHE
Here are a few more:
1. From the information posted, if i read it correctly it seems like if the messiah is killed then its proof that he never was the messiah. So then will this messiah live forever? And does it follow then that he will be immortal?
2. If nr1 is correct and he is immortal, how does a man born of a women become immortal?
3. If the messiah comes to unite israel, in other words the tribes return to israel and the kingdom of david is re-established then, what will he do with the muslims in israel?
4. Will there be a section for judah and a section for israel as in the OT?
5. Will he get all nations to worship him, or god, or are they one and the same?
6. What about the jews that have died of old, is there any prophecy that they will be resurrected?
7. If the messiah is immortal will he make the jews immortal.
8. What will the messiah do with atheists? LOL
Thanks again!
Here are a few more:
1. From the information posted, if i read it correctly it seems like if the messiah is killed then its proof that he never was the messiah. So then will this messiah live forever? And does it follow then that he will be immortal?
2. If nr1 is correct and he is immortal, how does a man born of a women become immortal?
3. If the messiah comes to unite israel, in other words the tribes return to israel and the kingdom of david is re-established then, what will he do with the muslims in israel?
4. Will there be a section for judah and a section for israel as in the OT?
5. Will he get all nations to worship him, or god, or are they one and the same?
6. What about the jews that have died of old, is there any prophecy that they will be resurrected?
7. If the messiah is immortal will he make the jews immortal.
8. What will the messiah do with atheists? LOL
Thanks again!
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Lots of people will be resurrected. Not just saints or prophets. All kinds of people who were good people. (It's a long list.)
That's God's problem. But He has no problem inventing n-space whenever He deems it necessary. (Ask me about the Jews in Jerusalem during the Temple times some time.)
We believe it exists. Eventually.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
no...
maimonides argues that being a Jew is how one is conceived....
It has nothing to do with birth lineage..... conceived with intention
Some would argue that being a Jew is a certain approach to God, which goes beyond Judaism....
...
My point being, there is a greater meaning to such things, including Israel, the holy land and Messiah......
but I'll leave you to swim in the surface....