Regarding Knight and Itwillend

[Heneni]

Thanks!

1. Did the jews baptise before john and if so can you explain in who's name they were baptised and why and who was allowed to baptise.

2. Was a man born form a jewish mother but a greek father required by the jewish authorities to become circumcised

3. What do you all believe happened to moses. Where do you believe he is buried/not buried...?

Thanks!

 

[Heneni]

From what I understand, the Christian "anti-Christ" is very similar to the Messiah.

yeh i was wondering about that. many christians believe that the next man that sets himself up in the temple and proclaims he is god, is the anti-christ, but yet from what i can tell, the jews dont see the messiah as god. So who is this man that is going to set himself up in the temple and call himself god?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thanks!

1. Did the jews baptise before john and if so can you explain in who's name they were baptised and why and who was allowed to baptise.

I'm not about to try to answer that. I'll let Harmonious do it. I know she knows.

2. Was a man born form a jewish mother but a greek father required by the jewish authorities to become circumcised

Better than that... such a child is required by GOD to become circumcised.

Jewish women give birth to Jewish babies. Jewish babies who are every bit as connected to the Torah as their mother is.

3. What do you all believe happened to moses. Where do you believe he is buried/not buried...?

The story is clearly recorded at the end of Deuteronomy. He ascended a mountain outside of Israel, overlooking the land of Israel, somewhere east of the Jordan river. He died atop that mountain, and God buried him in a manner that his resting place is unknown.

 

[Poisonshady313]

yeh i was wondering about that. many christians believe that the next man that sets himself up in the temple and proclaims he is god, is the anti-christ, but yet from what i can tell, the jews dont see the messiah as god. So who is this man that is going to set himself up in the temple and call himself god?

There is no such person.

 

[Heneni]

I'm not about to try to answer that. I'll let Harmonious do it. I know she knows.

Better than that... such a child is required by GOD to become circumcised.

Jewish women give birth to Jewish babies. Jewish babies who are every bit as connected to the Torah as their mother is.

I REALLY appreciate all your time. Ok back in the days when the disciples existed, what would the jews think about a jewish women marrying a greek man? Did the greek man have to convert right? But what if he didnt...would she be considered a non-jew then?

Im wondering whether a greek father would even subject his son to jewish laws unless he converted to judiasm.....

 

[Poisonshady313]

I REALLY appreciate all your time. Ok back in the days when the disciples existed, what would the jews think about a jewish women marrying a greek man?

The Torah prohibits intermarriage.

Did the greek man have to convert right?

No... a convert should convert on his own accord, for God's sake... not for the sake of marrying a Jewish woman. She should have married a Jewish man.

Though, if he underwent a legitimate conversion, that would create a more ideal situation for raising the child.

But what if he didnt...would she be considered a non-jew then?

No. But she wouldn't be recognized as a married person.

Im wondering whether a greek father would even subject his son to jewish laws unless he converted to judiasm.....

One of the many reasons why intermarriage is forbidden. Non-Jewish mothers give birth to non-Jewish boys, and non-Jewish fathers might very well impede his child's ability to be raised in a proper Jewish household.

 

[Poisonshady313]

1. Did the jews baptise before john and if so can you explain in who's name they were baptised and why and who was allowed to baptise.

She probably won't be on any time soon... so let me start by saying baptism isn't a Jewish term, but there is such a thing as an immersion in a ritual bath called a Mikvah.

Check Wikipedia for the word Mikvah.

The blessing for immersion in the Mikvah (said in Hebrew):

Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us regarding the immersion.

 

[Heneni]

The Torah prohibits intermarriage.

No... a convert should convert on his own accord, for God's sake... not for the sake of marrying a Jewish woman. She should have married a Jewish man.

Though, if he underwent a legitimate conversion, that would create a more ideal situation for raising the child.


No. But she wouldn't be recognized as a married person.

One of the many reasons why intermarriage is forbidden. Non-Jewish mothers give birth to non-Jewish boys, and non-Jewish fathers might very well impede his child's ability to be raised in a proper Jewish household.

Ok, now i know that ya all dont like Paul very much...but could we put that matter to the side for just a sec.

You might be familiar with Timothy. Timothy was paul's right hand man.

Timothy had a jewish mother and a greek father. But even in adulthood timothy was not circumcised.

Then paul circumsised timothy. Why do you think he did that?

If timothy's father was a greek convert to judiasm, then the boy must have been circumcised round about his birth, or was that not the norm?

In any event, im trying to figure out from a jewish perspective why paul would had timothy circumcised and why his father did not do it. Would timothy have been considered a '******* child' because of him being a half-breed and uncircumcised? Could that be the reason why paul rather had him circumcised? Would it have appeased the jews?

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

She probably won't be on any time soon... so let me start by saying baptism isn't a Jewish term, but there is such a thing as an immersion in a ritual bath called a Mikvah.

Check Wikipedia for the word Mikvah.

The blessing for immersion in the Mikvah (said in Hebrew):

Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us regarding the immersion.

Ok thanks! for the pointing in the right direction!

 

[Poisonshady313]

You might be familiar with Timothy. Timothy was paul's right hand man.

Actually, I'm not.

Timothy had a jewish mother and a greek father. But even in adulthood timothy was not circumcised.

Then paul circumsised timothy. Why do you think he did that?

Probably the only thing Paul did right. Jewish males should be circumcised. And if it doesn't happen at 8 days, it should happen as soon as possible.

If timothy's father was a greek convert to judiasm, then the boy must have been circumcised round about his birth, or was that not the norm?

If Timothy's father was a greek and didn't convert to Judaism, the boy still must be circumcised 8 days after birth. The fact that Timothy wasn't is unfortunate. The mother should have known and taken care of it. Apparently, the father refused to let it happen.

In any event, im trying to figure out from a jewish perspective why paul would had timothy circumcised and why his father did not do it.

All Jewish boys must be circumcised. That's why paul made sure that it happened.

Greeks are particularly against circumcision. Timothy's father might have prevented his son from being circumcised, much to the dismay of Timothy's mother, the Jewish community at large, and God.

Would timothy have been considered a '******* child' because of him being a half-breed and uncircumcised?

No. I definitely need Harmonious to elaborate on how Timothy would have been regarded... but he would not be considered a ******* child.

Could that be the reason why paul rather had him circumcised? Would it have appeased the jews?

Circumcision isn't so much for appeasing the Jews... it's a sign of a Jew's covenant between God.

The penalty of non-observance is karet, "excision" from the people or being cut off from the community by God, as noted in Genesis 17:1-14 (The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.). Conversion to Judaism for non-Israelites in Biblical times necessitated circumcision otherwise one could not partake in the Passover offering (Exodus 12:48).


Moses was almost killed by God for neglecting to circumcise his son. Moses' wife prevented this by circumcising the child.

 

[Heneni]

The penalty of non-observance is karet, "excision" from the people or being cut off from the community by God, as noted in Genesis 17:1-14 (The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.). Conversion to Judaism for non-Israelites in Biblical times necessitated circumcision otherwise one could not partake in the Passover offering (Exodus 12:48).

Ok, thanks that's what i wanted to know.

heneni

 

[Harmonious]

Poisonshady answered all of your questions admirably. But I'll get this one.

Would timothy have been considered a '******* child' because of him being a half-breed and uncircumcised?

Interestingly enough, no. Children born out of wedlock are not considered illegitimate, under Jewish law. They certainly don't have the most esteemed lineages, but these children are just as Jewish as their mother.

What would make a child illegitimate and a Mamzer (Hebrew word for *******) is if the child was born from incest or adultery. (What JEWS call adultery, not if a divorced couple remarried and had children.) Mamzerim are not permitted to marry born Jews. They aren't, and their children aren't. They can still be called to the Torah, they can still learn, they can still be counted in a quorum. But they can't ever get married. Unless, of course, they marry either another Mamzer, or they marry a convert to Judaism. I think if a Mamzer married a convert to Judaism, their children would be allowed to marry a born Jew, but I would have to check on that.

But if a Jewish woman marries (or, at any rate, has sex with) a non-Jewish man, the children will be Jewish, but without a tribe. It isn't the worst state of affairs, as most Jews don't know what tribe we're from, anyway.

So, from what you've said, if Timothy was the son of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man, Timothy would be Jewish, and would require a circumcision, like any other Jewish boy.

This idea of "half-breed" doesn't exist, in Judaism. Either you are Jewish, or you aren't. There is no half-way anything. Like death. There isn't "a little dead," unless you are watching "The Princess Bride." You are either dead or alive.

Miracles happen to bring people back from the dead, whether as actual miracles, like those performed by Elijah and Elisha, or more prosaic forms of miracles performed by doctors. But the fact remains that a person is either alive, or dead.

A person is either Jewish, or not Jewish.

The fact that a Jewish male is not circumcised is unfortunate, as it is one of the most basic of all Jewish laws when it comes to being male. They would not be marriageable until that is corrected. There are other spiritual problems about Jewish men not being circumcised, but they fall under the mystical heading.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The Torah prohibits intermarriage.

No... a convert should convert on his own accord, for God's sake... not for the sake of marrying a Jewish woman. She should have married a Jewish man.

Though, if he underwent a legitimate conversion, that would create a more ideal situation for raising the child.


No. But she wouldn't be recognized as a married person.

One of the many reasons why intermarriage is forbidden. Non-Jewish mothers give birth to non-Jewish boys, and non-Jewish fathers might very well impede his child's ability to be raised in a proper Jewish household.

And women cant be rabbis right?

 

[Harmonious]

And women cant be rabbis right?

Correct. It has more to do with the difference of men and women's obligations, and our ability to acquit members of the other gender of those obligations than any other distinction. It isn't a matter of discrimination; it is a matter of whose obligations are more urgent, as God dictated them.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Poisonshady answered all of your questions admirably. But I'll get this one.Interestingly enough, no. Children born out of wedlock are not considered illegitimate, under Jewish law. They certainly don't have the most esteemed lineages, but these children are just as Jewish as their mother.

What would make a child illegitimate and a Mamzer (Hebrew word for *******) is if the child was born from incest or adultery. (What JEWS call adultery, not if a divorced couple remarried and had children.) Mamzerim are not permitted to marry born Jews. They aren't, and their children aren't. They can still be called to the Torah, they can still learn, they can still be counted in a quorum. But they can't ever get married. Unless, of course, they marry either another Mamzer, or they marry a convert to Judaism. I think if a Mamzer married a convert to Judaism, their children would be allowed to marry a born Jew, but I would have to check on that.

But if a Jewish woman marries (or, at any rate, has sex with) a non-Jewish man, the children will be Jewish, but without a tribe. It isn't the worst state of affairs, as most Jews don't know what tribe we're from, anyway.

So, from what you've said, if Timothy was the son of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man, Timothy would be Jewish, and would require a circumcision, like any other Jewish boy.

This idea of "half-breed" doesn't exist, in Judaism. Either you are Jewish, or you aren't. There is no half-way anything. Like death. There isn't "a little dead," unless you are watching "The Princess Bride." You are either dead or alive.

Miracles happen to bring people back from the dead, whether as actual miracles, like those performed by Elijah and Elisha, or more prosaic forms of miracles performed by doctors. But the fact remains that a person is either alive, or dead.

A person is either Jewish, or not Jewish.

The fact that a Jewish male is not circumcised is unfortunate, as it is one of the most basic of all Jewish laws when it comes to being male. They would not be marriageable until that is corrected. There are other spiritual problems about Jewish men not being circumcised, but they fall under the mystical heading.

Yeah...but this only goes for orthodox jews...
Not every jew is like this

for example:

"because I didn’t want to deal with the circumcision issue. Debating it over drinks and actually doing it are two completely different things. As my belly grew, so did my suspicion that I was having a boy. (Of course we could have found out for sure, but again I humored my husband’s wish not to know until the birth.) Around 30 weeks into my pregnancy, I decided I better deal with the circumcision issue. All discussions with my husband ended in a stalemate. I decided to schedule a meeting with a rabbi so we could gang up on him.

The rabbi who married us had since retired, so I had my choice of three other rabbis: A forty-ish up-and-comer with three girls in their teens, a female in her thirties with a one year old son, and a new guy I didn’t know much about. I went with the female, Rabbi Cohen. I figured she could speak from personal experience and that the issues would be fresh in her mind.

Between the time I made the appointment with the rabbi and the time we were actually scheduled to go, I got an email from my friend who is a practicing midwife in California begging me to reconsider my decision. I don’t know if she witnessed a recent circumcision or what, but she was adamant. I went through the Jewish rigmarole with her and she responded with a link to Nocirc.org and specifically said to look at the information on Judaism and circumcision.

What I found shocked me. There were stories of Jews from all over the United States who had decided not to circumcise their children. Not only were they talking about it, they were making it seem ok. And most importantly, they were still accepted in the Jewish community. I couldn’t believe it. For the first time, I let myself really consider not circumcising my son. I also let myself read the circumcision boards at Mothering.com (which are decidedly anti-circumcision). I even found a few Jewish moms there who had kept their sons intact. I did a lot of soul searching and a lot of typing.

When you take the religion out of circumcision, and really look at what the procedure actually involves, it is easy to see why more and more people are choosing to leave their sons intact. I thank my lucky stars for the Internet and the information it provided me on circumcision (as well as a million other mummy related questions). The Internet has allowed me to question the status quoto find out why things are the way they are. A privilege our foremothers did not have. For me, the mere thought of giving birth to my precious baby at home without any medical intervention and then cutting off a part of his body eight days later just seemed absurd. I told myself that if God created my son with a foreskin, then he was going to keep it.

My husband was both thrilled and annoyed by my change of heart. Thrilled that I had “seen the light,” but annoyed that it wasn’t due to anything he had said. He was placated by the fact that I was now much more in agreement with him on the non-religious reasons to leave a child intact. However, I still felt like we should talk to the rabbi and ask that she perform a naming ceremony, not a bris, on the eighth day of our child’s life, even if it was a boy. "

My Son: The Little Jew with a Foreskin

I'm an uncut Jew....so there

Incidentally, Jews are cut on the 8th day, which (as few Jews either know or admit) actually ties in with the 7 days of creation, in that it is to signify one more than creation...(not Just eh "covenant" issue)... Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan explains this in his commentary on the sefer Yetzirah

 

[Mr Cheese]

Correct. It has more to do with the difference of men and women's obligations, and our ability to acquit members of the other gender of those obligations than any other distinction. It isn't a matter of discrimination; it is a matter of whose obligations are more urgent, as God dictated them.

Right, my cousin had a Jewish wedding performed by a female rabbi....

Once again illustrating your and your brothers ideas are only relevant amongst certain Jews, not all as you "proclaim"...

He had good wine at that weddign too....It was scrummy:flirt:

 

[Harmonious]

Yeah...but this only goes for orthodox jews...
Not every jew is like this

for example:

"because I didn’t want to deal with the circumcision issue. Debating it over drinks and actually doing it are two completely different things. As my belly grew, so did my suspicion that I was having a boy. (Of course we could have found out for sure, but again I humored my husband’s wish not to know until the birth.) Around 30 weeks into my pregnancy, I decided I better deal with the circumcision issue. All discussions with my husband ended in a stalemate. I decided to schedule a meeting with a rabbi so we could gang up on him.

The rabbi who married us had since retired, so I had my choice of three other rabbis: A forty-ish up-and-comer with three girls in their teens, a female in her thirties with a one year old son, and a new guy I didn’t know much about. I went with the female, Rabbi Cohen. I figured she could speak from personal experience and that the issues would be fresh in her mind.

Between the time I made the appointment with the rabbi and the time we were actually scheduled to go, I got an email from my friend who is a practicing midwife in California begging me to reconsider my decision. I don’t know if she witnessed a recent circumcision or what, but she was adamant. I went through the Jewish rigmarole with her and she responded with a link to Nocirc.org and specifically said to look at the information on Judaism and circumcision.

What I found shocked me. There were stories of Jews from all over the United States who had decided not to circumcise their children. Not only were they talking about it, they were making it seem ok. And most importantly, they were still accepted in the Jewish community. I couldn’t believe it. For the first time, I let myself really consider not circumcising my son. I also let myself read the circumcision boards at Mothering.com (which are decidedly anti-circumcision). I even found a few Jewish moms there who had kept their sons intact. I did a lot of soul searching and a lot of typing.

When you take the religion out of circumcision, and really look at what the procedure actually involves, it is easy to see why more and more people are choosing to leave their sons intact. I thank my lucky stars for the Internet and the information it provided me on circumcision (as well as a million other mummy related questions). The Internet has allowed me to question the status quoto find out why things are the way they are. A privilege our foremothers did not have. For me, the mere thought of giving birth to my precious baby at home without any medical intervention and then cutting off a part of his body eight days later just seemed absurd. I told myself that if God created my son with a foreskin, then he was going to keep it.

My husband was both thrilled and annoyed by my change of heart. Thrilled that I had “seen the light,” but annoyed that it wasn’t due to anything he had said. He was placated by the fact that I was now much more in agreement with him on the non-religious reasons to leave a child intact. However, I still felt like we should talk to the rabbi and ask that she perform a naming ceremony, not a bris, on the eighth day of our child’s life, even if it was a boy. "

My Son: The Little Jew with a Foreskin

I'm an uncut Jew....so there

Incidentally, Jews are cut on the 8th day, which (as few Jews either know or admit) actually ties in with the 7 days of creation, in that it is to signify one more than creation...(not Just eh "covenant" issue)... Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan explains this in his commentary on the sefer Yetzirah

I am well aware that not all Jews follow the Torah, and though it saddens me to know that there are Jews who opt NOT to be circumcised or not to circumcise their sons, they are still beloved Jews.

They will probably get Karet in the World to Come, and I certainly wouldn't marry such a fellow (I prefer the gentleman I intend to marry have a more full commitment to Torah and Mitzvot, you see), they are still Jews.

I'm not sure what you intend to say here. That there are Jews who don't believe as I do? I know that.

 

[Harmonious]

Right, my cousin had a Jewish wedding performed by a female rabbi....

Once again illustrating your and your brothers ideas are only relevant amongst certain Jews, not all as you "proclaim"...

He had good wine at that weddign too....It was scrummy:flirt:

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I KNOW that when I discuss "what Jews say" or "what Jews believe" that I'm focusing on what Orthodox Jews say. (I am also aware that not all Orthodox Jews agree on many things, but the things I say tend to be stuff we agree on. Usually.)

Hey - I also know that Jews who are not Orthodox have women Rabbis. I even know a few of them. (We have interesting theological discussions, on occasion.)

But just because people DO these things doesn't mean that I agree with them, nor does the Torah necessarily condone such things.

But that doesn't really stop people from doing or believing whatever they want.

I apologize if you felt slighted by my lack of acknowledging the "not" Orthodox perspective. That was not my goal.

However, if people in general ask about how Jewish law operates and wishes to understand it from a historical perspective, or even a "strict" perspective of people who take these commandments seriously, I think my perspective works.

 

[Heneni]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I KNOW that when I discuss "what Jews say" or "what Jews believe" that I'm focusing on what Orthodox Jews say. (I am also aware that not all Orthodox Jews agree on many things, but the things I say tend to be stuff we agree on. Usually.)

Thats fine i think that orthodox jews have in some ways a deeper understanding about judiasm so thats actualy a plus in my books.

 

[Harmonious]

Thats fine i think that orthodox jews have in some ways a deeper understanding about judiasm so thats actualy a plus in my books.

Very cool. Thank you.