Rejection of Christ

[Mister_T]

I was once christian and felt this so called love of/from god and realise now it's was just the comfortable joy of fitting in and having a bunch of other people thinking exactly the way you do.

I hope you don't believe this is the case for all Christians. The love of God for me is quite different and I'm a loner in regards to religion. I don't belong to any church and I don't feel the need to.

 

[Majikthise]

I hope you don't believe this is the case for all Christians. The love of God for me is quite different and I'm a loner in regards to religion. I don't belong to any church and I don't feel the need to.

I have christian friends who do not attend church or really follow all the rules , but in a pinch they are part of the greater whole. And they ,like you , don't try to make me seem defective to make themselves feel better.:clap

 

[joeboonda]

And some reject christ and any other god , diety or religion because they have correctly come to the conclusion that they are all contrivences of man. I was once christian and felt this so called love of/from god and realise now it's was just the comfortable joy of fitting in and having a bunch of other people thinking exactly the way you do. I now find that concept kind of scary, like mass mind control. Too many people I knew as fellow christians could really talk the talk but not walk the walk, including me. Why should you anyway? So much of the christian dogma is needlessly restictive and unfair to the point people are often hurt by it.
I believe that's why christians in particular tend to be so preachy, they can't stand the fact that anyone doesn't think like they do and it bugs them. Yeah yeah, you are worried about my eternal soul, stop worrying about me and get your own affairs in order.
You just can't stand it that some one really could be there and realise it is wrong so you keep trying to ram it home. Yeah, it works both ways, but I'm here now and I like it.

It sounds like this 'restrictive' religion you were exposed to is not the same Christianity I know. I was taught that salvation was a totaly free gift, I will never lose, and that I am now free. All things are lawful for me, but all are not good for me. Now I am growing in the love and grace and assurance of Christ, not perfect but forgiven, and at peace with God not because I am 'good', but because of what Jesus did. Being saved is not living perfect, it is just being freely justified, forgiven. I have been saved since I was 8, and am now almost 41, I have sinned with the best of them, and still do. I can say one thing I have learned, the small amount of pleasure derived from sin in no way is worth the misery and all that sin brings with it. Not to mention not being in fellowship (still in relationship, tho) with the Lord. Well, its not my job to worry about your eternal soul, it is my job to proclaim the Gospel, and I think I just have. Peace.

 

[Majikthise]

Case in point.

Peace.

 

[joeboonda]

huh? eh?

 

[wmam]

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(King James Bible, 1 John)
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(King James Bible, John)

So are you saying that there is a contradiction here or that there is some sort of mis-print or mis-translation? Whats up with these words "Think" and "Might"?

 

[Haas]

I, again, see no where in the entire Scriptures does it promise us that we will go to heaven. I also do not see the understanding of most on "hell". It is my understanding that if we are chosen, then we would be allowed into the kingdom that will be here. Also, hell is no other than the grave. LOL.... we all that die, before the second coming, will go to hell. Unless of course you die by means that would keep you from being buried like eaten by a bear or something then that is "Death" and not "Hell" as in........

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There is not even any guarantee that we will even be saved..........

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

You might be rottin' in hell, but not me bubba...LOL...God saved His people from the flood during Noahs time, will save His people from the tribulation.... And oh yea, save His people from the agonizing pit of hell. "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.".... You can't be coming in here, spittin' out a few quotes and act like you know somethin'......Pleeeeaaase!:no:

 

[Bishka]

You might be rottin' in hell, but not me bubba...LOL...God saved His people from the flood during Noahs time, will save His people from the tribulation.... And oh yea, save His people from the agonizing pit of hell. "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.".... You can't be coming in here, spittin' out a few quotes and act like you know somethin'......Pleeeeaaase!:no:

Yeah, God saved, what under 50 people during the flood?!?!

 

[Haas]

Yeah, God saved, what under 50 people during the flood?!?!

Noah, his wife, his sons and thier wives...Your point????. I said His people, i never gave a number.

 

[joeboonda]

So are you saying that there is a contradiction here or that there is some sort of mis-print or mis-translation? Whats up with these words "Think" and "Might"?

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

The scriptures I gave are very clear in stating we can know we have eternal life now. These verses you mention are from Jesus' talking to the Jewish leaders who, although they have the scriptures, are blind to the fact that they are testifying of Jesus, so He said they THINK they have eternal life, but they do not. He then says that he says these things that ye MIGHT be saved, in other words, that you MIGHT believe what Jesus said and trust in Him, if one does that they ARE saved. I hope that clarifies things, thanks.

 

[Majikthise]

huh? eh?

You make the case for my point wonderfully.

 

[sojourner]

I'm just curious, since people keep on mentioning "American Christianity"...what's the difference between Christianity here and Christianity elsewhere in the world? A good portion of the Christian denominations practiced in the U.S. were founded in Europe (such as Catholicism and Lutheranism), so aren't they pretty similar?

I'm not trying to attack your statement haha, I'm really just wondering what the difference is.

There are denominations that are uniquely American -- that were begun by Americans on American soil, with the American mind set. Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Christian Science, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of thes do present a uniquely American viewpoint on the theology of salvation, not particularly shared by Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans or Anglicans.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think it is either. Although our idea's of heaven and hell differ, I'll back up that statement.

Christianity in America has invented it's own man-made salvation program. They have made Christianity a reward based concept: Do this, say this, believe this and voila! Salvation is yours. The reward of Heaven overides things such as compassion and understanding (and a lot of times logic). They have taken the position of judge and deemed themselves heaven bound and at the same time deemed other hell bound. When the fact is God has the final say on who goes and who doesn't. Not any human.

NO ONE passes judgement. The Bible clearly states that EVERYONE will be judged. No one bypasses this. If confession of belief guarantee's automatic salvation, then there is no need for judgement. And that notion is not ANYWHERE in the Bible.

True, but don't you think God chooses to both define and temper judgment with unconditional love?

 

[sojourner]

Muslims do not worship my god. and the Jews were deceived by Satan, which Satan considered his biggest victory, but that just opened the door for the gentiles

Oh? They worship the God of Abraham, same as us...

And yet...they're God's chosen people...

It always amazes me how God can be so accepting of us...even when we've "kicked him in the shins."

 

[Mister_T]

True, but don't you think God chooses to both define and temper judgment with unconditional love?

Yes I do. But I don't believe that everyone will want God's love.

 

[wmam]

You might be rottin' in hell, but not me bubba...LOL...

Now that may be up for debate. Just kidding. lol

God saved His people from the flood during Noahs time,

yep... all 8 of them, if I remember correctly, out of. what, 100,000.00 or so?

will save His people from the tribulation...

Yes.....Those that are already asleep in the faith, and all that this means as a whole, of Yahshua and those 144,000 that are alive that also believe. 144,000 out of how many are now or maybe on the earth at that time? over 5 Billion?

And oh yea, save His people from the agonizing pit of hell.

Well........"Hell" in Hebrew is Sheol and "Pit" is bor. It is my understanding that one would dig a pit and then it becomes a grave if ones dead flesh is put in it. Therefore hell is the grave and the pit thereof. Also......If you are in hell then what is the lake of fire? I mean where does it say if you are bad you are going to hell and then in some point in the future you will be taken out and cast into the lake of fire? I mean if you are to be in hell for all eternity then what is this lake of fire that all wickedness is suppose to be thrown into.........up to and including death and hell themselves? I see some cracks in this way of thinking of yours.

John 8:21 Then said Yahshua again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: WHITHER I GO, YE CANNOT COME.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: AND AS I SAID UNTO THE JEWS, WHITHER I GO, YE CANNOT COME; so now I say unto you.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

"To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord."....

I go along with that but one needs to realize that one will not be without the body until one is translated into that new body. Now the time in which this will occur will be up to whether are not you are in fact one of the dead in Yahshua or one of the 144.000 or one of the others. All will be translated whether they be chosen or on that day of judgment.

You can't be coming in here, spittin' out a few quotes and act like you know somethin'......Pleeeeaaase!:no:

Sorry......... I claim to know nothing but that which is revealed to me by the Father.

 

[wmam]

The scriptures I gave are very clear in stating we can know we have eternal life now. These verses you mention are from Jesus' talking to the Jewish leaders who, although they have the scriptures, are blind to the fact that they are testifying of Jesus, so He said they THINK they have eternal life, but they do not. He then says that he says these things that ye MIGHT be saved, in other words, that you MIGHT believe what Jesus said and trust in Him, if one does that they ARE saved. I hope that clarifies things, thanks.

The Scriptures that I gave are very clear as well that we think we may and might be saved. The context in which you assume was meant in the verses are not of my understanding but what is, is the fact that we as men can only hope for, and pray, that YAH our Elohim will spread His grace on us and take pity unto our beings and save us. It is my understanding that it would be very bold indeed for any of us to make such statements as to our own salvations when it is not up to us whether we obtain such or not. We can only hope. With faith and obedience to the Most High. We pray that He saves us........... For the Potter does as He wishes with the clay.

 

[DeepShadow]

[My computer is extraordinarily slow today, so I only plowed through the first four pages before writing this; forgive me if it's already been addressed.]

As the original quote was pertaining to LDS doctrine, it seems most of you here have missed the point. The "Hell" referred to is specifically outer darkness, as it's called in LDS doctrine. Atheists do not go to outer darkness. Non-Christians do not go to outer darkness. The only people who go there are those who know the truthfulness of the gospel and then reject it. We're a little sketchy on the specifics--it's not a major point of doctrine--but most sources suggest it requires having a vision of Jesus Christ.

Unless someone had a personal visit from Jesus Christ, they're probably not a candidate for the LDS version of Hell.

This does naturally beg the question posed in the opening post (and promptly ignored by most of the respondants) as to why someone who had that level of spiritual development would reject Jesus Christ. The answer is usually that at some point, this person has discovered some sin that they would rather keep. After weighing everything out, they basically take a look at Christ and say, "I prefer my sins to your kingdom."

 

[Katzpur]

[My computer is extraordinarily slow today, so I only plowed through the first four pages before writing this; forgive me if it's already been addressed.]

As the original quote was pertaining to LDS doctrine, it seems most of you here have missed the point. The "Hell" referred to is specifically outer darkness, as it's called in LDS doctrine. Atheists do not go to outer darkness. Non-Christians do not go to outer darkness. The only people who go there are those who know the truthfulness of the gospel and then reject it. We're a little sketchy on the specifics--it's not a major point of doctrine--but most sources suggest it requires having a vision of Jesus Christ.

Unless someone had a personal visit from Jesus Christ, they're probably not a candidate for the LDS version of Hell.

This does naturally beg the question posed in the opening post (and promptly ignored by most of the respondants) as to why someone who had that level of spiritual development would reject Jesus Christ. The answer is usually that at some point, this person has discovered some sin that they would rather keep. After weighing everything out, they basically take a look at Christ and say, "I prefer my sins to your kingdom."

DeepShadow,

I'm glad you posted this, and as usual you did an excellent job of explaining our doctrine. I've often thought about Sons of Perdition with regards to Judas Iscariot. He was intimately acquainted with the Savior, and yet I have considered the possibility that he may not even be a candidate for Son of Perdition. Remember when Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. When He asked the Apostles who they thought He was, only Peter really seemed to realize that Jesus was the Son of God. And when the resurrected Christ appeared to his Apostles (except for Thomas), Thomas couldn't even accept their word for what had taken place. I don't think that most of them really comprehended who He was until they witnessed His resurrection. Because of all these subtle indicators, I can't help but consider the possibility that even Judas may not end up being a Son of Perdition. I don't know for sure, obviously. Have any of the Church leaders every commented on that, do you know?

 

[SoyLeche]

DeepShadow,

I'm glad you posted this, and as usual you did an excellent job of explaining our doctrine. I've often thought about Sons of Perdition with regards to Judas Iscariot. He was intimately acquainted with the Savior, and yet I have considered the possibility that he may not even be a candidate for Son of Perdition. Remember when Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. When He asked the Apostles who they thought He was, only Peter really seemed to realize that Jesus was the Son of God. And when the resurrected Christ appeared to his Apostles (except for Thomas), Thomas couldn't even accept their word for what had taken place. I don't think that most of them really comprehended who He was until they witnessed His resurrection. Because of all these subtle indicators, I can't help but consider the possibility that even Judas may not end up being a Son of Perdition. I don't know for sure, obviously. Have any of the Church leaders every commented on that, do you know?

Seems to me that Talmage says he was in "Jesus the Christ" and Kimbal says he wasn't in "Miracle of Forgivness". I may have those backwards, but I'm pretty sure they say opposite things.