Religion and Abortion

[Bastet]

I'd always considered pregnancy to have started when an egg is fertilised by a sperm. If this isn't the case, how do you explain ectopic pregnancy, where a fertilised egg settles outside the uterus, usually in the fallopian tube? These pregnancies can reach something like 5 or 6 weeks gestation before becoming dangerous (because of location), and therefore apparent to the mother.

 

[Bastet]

Ugh! mg: Just been doing some more research on that RU486...I can quite safely say that wasn't what my doctor gave me, since it wasn't even legal in Australia at that time (early 1994). There were some illegal 'trials' of the drug later that year, but it took some time before it was legally allowed in the country, and even then, imports were restricted. Which means RU486 is not what your average local GP was prescribing as the 'morning after pill', before Postinor-2 became available over the counter here. And, reading the way it works, and side-effects, I'm glad of that! At least a surgical abortion doesn't have the potential to take 35-40 days from start to finish. *faint* Haven't found anything that actually states definitively what the cut-off time is for the use of RU486, but since most sites refer to it as an "abortion alternative", then here, that would be around 16 weeks gestation (I could be wrong, but I think that's the latest abortions can be performed at).

I have a question...you said that this 'Plan B' has been stopped from becoming available over the counter, but is there an equivalent that is available by doctor's presription there?

 

[painted wolf]

Bastet...
pregnancy begins when the egg attaches to the mothers body and starts to grow... ectopic pregnancy is simply implantation in a place other than the uterine wall...

eggs can be fertilized outside the body but to grow they need to be implanted in the body...
hence pregnancy... occasionaly fertilized eggs don't implant and are expelled naturaly by the body.. hence non pregnancy...

Plan B and its equivelents are leagal in many countries... The USA however, is very puritanical when it comes to contraception. The use of 'plan B' is ok with a perscription... however that can take longer than the 72 hour window of opportunity and it takes the decision out of the hands of the woman.
If you have a doctor who doesn't believe in it they can say no... same goes with the pharmisist... A pharmisist recently got a national chain in big truble for refusing to fill perscription birth control as he felt it was immoral...

I personaly don't like the idea of abortion and wouldn't get one (excepting the presance of extreme birth defect like Harliquin fetus)... but I feel that this is a freedom issue and that women deserve the right to make thier own procreative choices.

wa:-do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But painted wolf--

You are glad that partial birth abortion, at least, is illegal right? I hope we can all at least agree on that much.

 

[painted wolf]

mr spinkles

That depends...

>> What many people do not realize is that the Partial Birth Abortion Ban does not allow for women who would opt for an abortion at their 18-20 week ultrasound after discovering that their child had a birth defect. The ban does not allow abortions after the first trimester, but unfortunately many birth defects cannot be detected until well into the second trimester.<<
exerpt from About.com:
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/partialbirth/a/partialbirthabo.htm

It is a grusome procedure and I cant see it being used for 'convenience'... however the fact remains that terrible things can go wrong with a pregnancy and most of the worst cant be detected untill the fetus is too developed for other procedures. Realisticly D&X (as it is called medically) is only about 1% of the abortions performed...

For me it comes to this... is it wrong to end the life of a severely deformed fetus to prevent its slow and possilby painful death after birth? Is it less humane than the concept of Euthanasia?

I'm not talking about little problems ether... I'm talking big ones.. ones that garentee that the child will die within 72 hours of birth if it isn't still born

The law makes no exception for these cases...

if you are curious about the sort of things I'm talking about do a serch for
-Harlequin fetus aka... ichthyosis congenita gravis
-Anencephaly.. missing the top of the head
-Encephalocele ... herniation of the brain
-Gastroschisis... herniation of the abdomin

I will not give links... these things are not plesant and if you don't like disturbing images then do not look for them...

but they do happin... most are rare.. about one in every 1000 pregnancies or so...

again.. it comes down to.. is it more important to let the child die 'a natural death' or to 'end the suffering quickly' ?

I cant make that decision for someone elce.

wa:-do

 

[Bastet]

I am pro-choice, but I don't think I personally could have an abortion. But again, you never know what you would do in a given situation, unless you were actually in it. I have known women who have had an abortion, because they felt it was the best option at the time, and I have known women who decided to keep the baby. Neither were easy decisions. I certainly don't see abortion as "the easy way out", because it's a decision that stays with you for the rest of your life. Yes, I believe everything happens for a reason, but what's to say the reason is to have the baby? Anyway, making abortions illegal won't make them stop, it would just make them more dangerous. You can be pro-life, pro-choice, or pro-whateverthehellyoulike, but in the end, I will do with my own body what I wish. And that should go for every woman.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I agree that making abortion illegal wouldn't stop abortions entirely, just as making cocaine illegal won't stop all cocaine use. However, abortion rates have increased since Roe v Wade (though they are currently decreasing).

I think if abortions were made illegal (except when medically required) abortion rates would drop, just as if anything were made illegal. I think more women would choose adoption rather than back alley abortions. Today about one in every four pregnancies ends in abortion.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfiles_detail.cfm?issue_type=abortion&list=3

Why are abortion and keeping the baby the only two options? Why not give the child up for adoption, to a family who wants a baby and has means to support him/her?

What about late term abortions (though very rare) in which the baby inside could be delivered and live on its own outside the body (with the aid of doctors, of course- like all premature newborns)?

In partial birth abortions (which are currently legal) the baby could survive outside the womb if delivered fully, but instead is delivered feet first so that the skull can be split open and the brains sucked out. I apologize for being graphic, but I don't understand why this procedure doesn't fill pro choice people with horror, as it does me.

 

[OctoberTheHottie]

In partial birth abortions (which are currently legal) the baby could survive outside the womb if delivered fully, but instead is delivered feet first so that the skull can be split open and the brains sucked out. I apologize for being graphic, but I don't understand why this procedure doesn't fill pro choice people with horror, as it does me.

I have never heard of that, that is just unbelievable to me that someone would think of such a procedure to do.....

But in my opinion on the whole thing, I have said this before, although it would never happen, I think a good solution to the problem would be if abortion were made illegal and that anyone under 21 should have to legally give thier baby up for adoption to a family waiting on an adoption list. Now I am pro-choice, but teens, as well as irresponsible adults have made this into just another form of birth control, it is so normal and I don't think it should be that way. Not to mention once you get up to a high amount of abortions you are really starting to cause damage for yourself... There should be something into getting people to realize that you need to think about this before the problem, not after.

I don't support making abortion illegal when it is a necessary medical procedure.

And in the case of medical danger to keep the mother or baby from being injured and the doctor has to recommend an abortion, it is called denaturalization and that will always be legal, it is not considered an abortion and would not be affected by laws.... Why would they illegalize that when adult lives could be lost or the baby could be born dead and all that could be avoided?? I don't think the two go hand in hand, illegalizing abortion would mean no more after the fact birth control, and unfortunately rape victims would have to either keep thier baby or put it up for adoption, but those would be the only two things affected....

 

[painted wolf]

well... knowing victems of rape and thier struggle over such issues.. I can't say anyone has the right to tell them to give birth ...

can you imagine haveing to carry the child of your attacker?... Having that constant reminder of the violence and humiliation forced on you by society?

wa:-do

 

[OctoberTheHottie]

Yeah, but that is really besides the point, when you can get a morning after pill, I had forgot about that when I made that post.

I mostly only support illegalizing abortion over teen's view of it as birth control, but since every age group would have to suffer through it as well, there are other options. I just look at it as everyone needs to make a conscience effort. Rape victims need to come forward and get treatment, teens need to make it their responsibility to take this more seriously. And adults need to be more responsible too.... Whether law should be what forces us to do that or not, I dunno, but that is just my opinion.... It just looks cut and dry to me, on one hand you have families dying to adopt a child they can raise as thier own, and on the other hand you have babies being killed everyday because teens are too young to handle it. How much more simple can it get?? If everyone knew 100% without a doubt that if you get pregnant under age your only choice is to give it up for adoption I would think that would make them think twice about whether they wanted to take 9 months out of thier life to deal with that. I don't think they should have the right to keep it because they aren't prepared and the child will suffer not to mention they will be on welfare. I know that is a pipe dream though because I think it would force more kids into trying to do it themselves. So I certainly wouldn't want that. It is a tough world we live in..... It's almost like we have been backed into a corner on this one, it doesn't look like there is any happy way to change this matter....

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I cannot even begin to imagine how horrible that must be, painted wolf. Still, I think late term and partial birth abortion is a hideous solution to the problem.

I admit that the morning after pill and other kinds of procedures to stop very early pregnancy do not seem so inhumane to me--it's harder to feel bad for a group of embryotic cells than it is for a thumb-sucking, kicking, fully developed baby ready to be born.

But I no more support killing a baby caused by rape a couple of days before its born than I do a couple of days after its born. The question is where to draw the line. In my opinion it's been drawn barbaricly so that as long as a baby's head is still inside the womb, it can be killed.

At some point (right now it's the point at which the head leaves the womb) the child's right to be alive supercedes the imposed responsibility on the mother.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Abortion is sick. SICK. Most people do not realize the effects it has. It's not like going to the doctor to get a wart removed, your done and you go home. ITS TAKING A LIFE. It's painful. I've spoken with multiple women who have had more than one abortion. One of the women had children, and her son found out and immediately had nightmares of his mother trying to kill him, and had to have therapy. Last I heard, around 90% of women who have an abortion regret it later in life. That was a few years ago, and may not be right on. but it was a high percentage. many women deal with depression, suicide, and eating disorders because of abortions. and rape is no excuse. why justify one crime with another. why justify pain with more pain. children are gifts. and many peole are ingrateful recipients. youve been given something many people wnat and cant have and your saying screw it who cares im too selfish to think that this involves more than just me. its cowardice. and how anyone came up with these procedures is beyond me. One way to abort a child is to insert a saline solutin that burns the fetus. Another way is to chop up the baby and then suck it out. yummy, right kids? People say its a woman's choice to do what she wants with her body. well she had other choices. if she didnt want to be pregnant, she had the choice not to have sex. she had the choice to be on birth control. its murder. your allowing people to choose murder. its a CHILD. and its murder.

 

[Ceridwen018]

painted wolf,

I see what you're saying here, and I think I accept abortion as a necessary means of medical treatment, especially if the life of the mother were in serios risk, or (like you said) the baby wouldn't survive anyway. I wish though that science could create a new method, instead of D&X.

What I don't agree with is using this form of abortion to do away with a perfectly healthy baby during a perfectly healthy pregnancy because it is not wanted. Even if the baby is not perfectly healthy, if it can live after birth, it should not be killed. To say that it is alright to abort babies with disabilities, is to say that current living persons with disabilities are second class citizens, in a way.

 

[painted wolf]

I also wish that there was a less grusome way and that such a method should never be used on a healthy child.. (I include minor problems like Downs Syndrom with helthy)

I would never promote killing a child simply because they had a disability...

wa:-do

 

[Ceridwen018]

painted wolf,

In response to what you said about having to carry the child of your attacker, I really do want to send you this site.

http://www.pamstenzel.com/

Pam Stenzel was conceived through a rape. Her mother seriously considered abortion, but ultimately decided to keep her baby and give it up for adoption. Pam is now one of the biggest speakers in the world on abstinence and safe sex, etc. I can tell you from experience, that she is certainly one of the most moving speakers I have ever seen.

The thing that stuck me the most when I was watching one of her tapes, was the realization that she had accomplished so much and was now helping so many people! If her mother had had an abortion (although the circumstances were terrible, I know) Pam would not be here today (obviously). And that really makes you think. No matter how well developed, no matter how conceived, all babies are on equal planes in that they all carry so much incredible potential for their lives, which for some technically havn't started yet. If a woman knew her baby was to be the next president, would she be so ready for that abortion? Of course not! But we need to take that into consideration, because anything is possible for the lives of these babies.

I urge you to check out Pam. Watch one of her movies. Not because I think you need a lesson in abstinance and safe sex (hehe), but just to hear her tell her story, and be blown away by her powerful message.

 

[Ceridwen018]

On partial birth abortion,

Also called '3rd trimester abortion' is no longer legal.

During the third trimester, the baby has the ability to live on its own, in an incubator, granted, but surviving nonetheless. Studies done of this procedure showed that the babies felt a great amount of pain. (the procedure is how Mr. Spinkles described it). Luckily, it has been recently outlawed, and I am ashamed to know that the inventor of such a procedure resides and set up the first clinic right in my town.

The ludicrous justification, that a baby is not born until its head is removed from the uterus, means that the babies would be completely delivered, all eccept for their heads, which would then be dealt with in the manner described above. Barbaric does not even begin to describe.

Another note: Abortion has been linked to breast cancer, and other female related cancers. (I don't have any souces on me right now, but I'll get some)
Basically explained, when a woman becomes pregnant, her body undergoes many internal changes, as far as the levels of hormones and such. This is all done to help the baby grow and keep the pregnancy healthy. Once an abortion is introduced, (which is an extremely unnatural process), all the sudden the baby is gone and all of those hormones and the like which were preparing for birth in both the breasts and the uterus are left without a job. They scatter, stay stagnant, whatever-- but the bottom line is, with no baby, they aren't supposed to be there and so all to often they cause insult to the cells around them, causing cancer.
Like I said, I'll find those sources for everyone!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Ceridwen-- Really? Partial birth abortion is now illegal? Huh, I didn't know that....I'm glad though.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Ok painted wolf and ceridwen, we three seem to be in agreement on the partial birth abortion.

 

[painted wolf]

Ceridwen

I'm glad that she has found such as good way to spend her life...
I'm glad that her mother was able to go through with what was obviously a heartwrenching desicion.

Everyone reacts to trauma diffently... some women would not have been able to handle it as well as her mother obviously did.

I'm not saying that women who have been raped should get abortions, but that women should have that option if they truely can not handle the trauma of the event.

Idealy that is what the 'morning after pill' was supposed to help handle... as it prevents pregnancy in the first place, so no need to worry about the whole abortion issue later.
Unfortunatly the FDA bent to political pressure on this one and is not letting the pill though, dispite reccomendations in favor of it.

wa:-do

 

[Ceridwen018]

Haha, agreement is so boring! Let's get some hardcore liberals in here pronto!