Religion and Abortion

[Green Gaia]

Haha, agreement is so boring! Let's get some hardcore liberals in here pronto!

Someone call? :hi:

Actually, beyond stating I believe in and support a woman's right to choose, I'm not prepared or inclined to argue beyond that on this issue.

I'll leave my left-wing card at the door lol.

 

[Ceridwen018]

painted wolf,

Wow really? The FDA isn't letting the morning after pill out at all, or just not as over the counter? *wrings hands nervously and loosens collar*
lol, j/k!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

painted wolf are you sure about this? I really thought that the morning after pill is still accessible, and not restricted by law. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

 

[Bastet]

I'm not sure if it works the same in the US, but here it has been available by way of a doctor's prescription, or a trip to the emergency room at a hospital. There has been talk about making it available over-the-counter, at pharmacies, but I don't know if this has happened yet.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

What do you think about abortion Bastet? I'd like to hear other points of view.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

When it comes to rape, how can you place the blame for a woman's trauma on an innocent child? mg: Wow, that's a little much. A rape is a horrible horrible thing. No doubt about it. But throught this horrible thing, joy can come out of it. A new life. A NEW LIFE WITH ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES. And the mother can give away her baby. Plenty of couples and single people are looking to adopt. And personally, I just think that the morning after pill is gonna encourage people to be more promiscuous because one of their great worries of getting pregnant is much much much much less.

i work next to an abortion clinic... the only one left in my town.. the one in which the practitioner (the word doctor doesnt fit, and im holding back the M word) is the same one who invented partial birth abortion. I've seen women pull out of that parking lot with the worst looks on their faces. I have been late to work because I have sat in the parking lot stunned by the looks on these women's faces. It's horrifying, tragic, chilling, and it hurts my heart.

And another note... pregnancy resulting from rape is not as common as people make it out to be. When someone is raped, a hostiel environment is created inside the woman. People who have trouble getting prenant can tell you that stress and such things do not help the egg to be fertilized. So pregnancy is not a common thing to result from rape.

 

[painted wolf]

yup, Plan B the 'morning after pill' was kept off the shelves.
check out:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-05-09-fda-morning-after_x.htm

this pill should not however be confused with RU486 the 'abortion pill'... wich is avalable with perscription and doctor supervision...

Plan B prevents pregnancy from happining much like other forms of birth control... its basicly a concentrated dose of the regular birth control pill...

personally I'm much more for this option than RU486...

and no, I don't blame the child... I understand the sort of mental trauma that is associated with rape and the difficult choices that go along with it...

I'm for letting women decide what is best for them not the old men in the government.

wa:-do

 

[Bastet]

What do you think about abortion Bastet? I'd like to hear other points of view.

I posted a little earlier in the thread already.

 

[Bastet]

yup, Plan B the 'morning after pill' was kept off the shelves.
check out:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-05-09-fda-morning-after_x.htm

this pill should not however be confused with RU486 the 'abortion pill'... wich is avalable with perscription and doctor supervision...

Plan B prevents pregnancy from happining much like other forms of birth control... its basicly a concentrated dose of the regular birth control pill...

personally I'm much more for this option than RU486...
wa:-do

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference between the two? It's always been called 'the morning after pill' here in Australia. At least, that's what I asked for the one time I needed it lol. As that was explained to me at the time by my doctor, it was a concentrated (double or triple), dose of the regular birth control pill (main active ingredient being Levonorgestrel). What it did, was bring on my period, thus preventing pregnancy...but it had to be taken within 72 hours of intercourse to be effective. The regular birth control pill, if taken when a woman is pregnant (since it is not 100% effective as contraception, a woman can fall pregnant without realising, and still be taking birth control), can cause miscarriage. How is this RU486 different from what my doctor gave me, or how is it different from the proposed over-the-counter 'Plan B'?

*edited to add*
I've just done a bit of searching, and from what I've found, they both prevent pregnancy in the same way - by disrupting the lining of the uterus, making it impossible for a fertilised egg (if there happens to be one), to attach itself. Bleeding may occur, or it may not. Depending on when you consider a fertilised egg to be 'life', you could call them both 'abortion pills'. I don't see how one is better or worse than the other...neither are considered effective after 72 hours of intercourse.

 

[Bastet]

I just did a little research, and apparently the morning after pill (packaged as 'Postinor-2'), has been available over the counter in Australia since January 1 of this year. Well, there you go lol I'm in the loop... http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1018838.htm

 

[painted wolf]

the difference is that one is contraceptive and the other an abortifact...

-'plan B' prevents the egg from attaching to the uterine wall, thereby preventing pregnancy...
-RU486 causes the woman to shed the uterine layer that contains the egg thereby aborting the implanted egg... this can be dangerous and must be supervised by a doctor.. RU486 is actually a two drug combination and both pills must be taken to be effective.

pregnancy starts with the implanting of the egg into the uterine wall...

here is planned partenthoods explanation:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/birthcontrol/ecandma.html

wa:-do

 

[OctoberTheHottie]

Are you sure there is a time limit on the RU486 pill?? I know the morning after is only effective up to 72 hours, so basically working like birth control in my opinion, but I thought the other pill could be used much later. I have heard that RU486 is just like an abortion except without the surgical procedure, it causes extreme pain to the abdomen until the pregnancy is ended and I thought it was an alternative for patients that couldn't have a surgical procedure for whatever reason, or I guess didn't want to?? I don't know how it works exactly, but I hear it is no walk in the park....

 

[Bastet]

I'd always considered pregnancy to have started when an egg is fertilised by a sperm. If this isn't the case, how do you explain ectopic pregnancy, where a fertilised egg settles outside the uterus, usually in the fallopian tube? These pregnancies can reach something like 5 or 6 weeks gestation before becoming dangerous (because of location), and therefore apparent to the mother.

 

[Bastet]

Ugh! mg: Just been doing some more research on that RU486...I can quite safely say that wasn't what my doctor gave me, since it wasn't even legal in Australia at that time (early 1994). There were some illegal 'trials' of the drug later that year, but it took some time before it was legally allowed in the country, and even then, imports were restricted. Which means RU486 is not what your average local GP was prescribing as the 'morning after pill', before Postinor-2 became available over the counter here. And, reading the way it works, and side-effects, I'm glad of that! At least a surgical abortion doesn't have the potential to take 35-40 days from start to finish. *faint* Haven't found anything that actually states definitively what the cut-off time is for the use of RU486, but since most sites refer to it as an "abortion alternative", then here, that would be around 16 weeks gestation (I could be wrong, but I think that's the latest abortions can be performed at).

I have a question...you said that this 'Plan B' has been stopped from becoming available over the counter, but is there an equivalent that is available by doctor's presription there?

 

[painted wolf]

Bastet...
pregnancy begins when the egg attaches to the mothers body and starts to grow... ectopic pregnancy is simply implantation in a place other than the uterine wall...

eggs can be fertilized outside the body but to grow they need to be implanted in the body...
hence pregnancy... occasionaly fertilized eggs don't implant and are expelled naturaly by the body.. hence non pregnancy...

Plan B and its equivelents are leagal in many countries... The USA however, is very puritanical when it comes to contraception. The use of 'plan B' is ok with a perscription... however that can take longer than the 72 hour window of opportunity and it takes the decision out of the hands of the woman.
If you have a doctor who doesn't believe in it they can say no... same goes with the pharmisist... A pharmisist recently got a national chain in big truble for refusing to fill perscription birth control as he felt it was immoral...

I personaly don't like the idea of abortion and wouldn't get one (excepting the presance of extreme birth defect like Harliquin fetus)... but I feel that this is a freedom issue and that women deserve the right to make thier own procreative choices.

wa:-do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But painted wolf--

You are glad that partial birth abortion, at least, is illegal right? I hope we can all at least agree on that much.

 

[painted wolf]

mr spinkles

That depends...

>> What many people do not realize is that the Partial Birth Abortion Ban does not allow for women who would opt for an abortion at their 18-20 week ultrasound after discovering that their child had a birth defect. The ban does not allow abortions after the first trimester, but unfortunately many birth defects cannot be detected until well into the second trimester.<<
exerpt from About.com:
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/partialbirth/a/partialbirthabo.htm

It is a grusome procedure and I cant see it being used for 'convenience'... however the fact remains that terrible things can go wrong with a pregnancy and most of the worst cant be detected untill the fetus is too developed for other procedures. Realisticly D&X (as it is called medically) is only about 1% of the abortions performed...

For me it comes to this... is it wrong to end the life of a severely deformed fetus to prevent its slow and possilby painful death after birth? Is it less humane than the concept of Euthanasia?

I'm not talking about little problems ether... I'm talking big ones.. ones that garentee that the child will die within 72 hours of birth if it isn't still born

The law makes no exception for these cases...

if you are curious about the sort of things I'm talking about do a serch for
-Harlequin fetus aka... ichthyosis congenita gravis
-Anencephaly.. missing the top of the head
-Encephalocele ... herniation of the brain
-Gastroschisis... herniation of the abdomin

I will not give links... these things are not plesant and if you don't like disturbing images then do not look for them...

but they do happin... most are rare.. about one in every 1000 pregnancies or so...

again.. it comes down to.. is it more important to let the child die 'a natural death' or to 'end the suffering quickly' ?

I cant make that decision for someone elce.

wa:-do

 

[amanda]

Everybody usually says its my body or its not fully grown so it doesn't matter (whatever). Life is forming in your body. Nobody has the right to take a life,but God. People say well what about rape and you get pregnant. I know that really terrible. The baby is not guilty of anything. He or she is innocent. Theres always adoption. There people all over the world who cannot have babies.God say thou shall not kill. Its not hard to understand. If you don't want kids {birthcontrol}.

 

[anders]

PW,

Do you really consider Down's Syndrome a "minor problem"? I know for sure that I wouldn't be capable of rearing such a child. Maybe it is a shortcoming, but having seen people struggling with it (and doing it admirably), I know that I don't have what's required. I would in all probability be unable to care for a child with a fragile X-syndrom, which may be less hadicapping.

amanda,

God doesn't say "thou shalt not kill". The applicable commandment uses a rather uncommon word out of all those in the OT that mean approximately "kill", and should be translated "You must not commit manslaughter, unless absolutely necessary".

A good lawyer might argue that God makes the actual abortions, but Num. 5 clearly states that is is a jealous husband's duty to make the príest carry out the procedures leading to an abortion.

 

[Sam Bloom]

The decision of whether to have an abortion should rest with the mother. Not with a politician, or a religious zealot, but the mother. Now it seems to me that a father's opinon should be weighed to an extent, but the final decision with the mother.