Religion in Public Schools.

[tumbleweed41]

LMAO!
I love the ACLU!

Yep, and I bet they would even defend ManofFaiths right to spread disinformation about them in a Religious Forum.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

An example title, if you would.

Any 6th grade history text book in use in California will do.

 

[Rhizomatic]

Firstly, religion is much more pervasive than political ideology. Hitler wasn't considered the creator of everything who laid down religious laws that the entire world has to follow, or else.

Secondly, when are children supposed to learn foundational education, the proverbial Three R's?

We were not taught about religion at all when I went to school, at least after they kicked the bible and Jehovah out of the curriculum, and our education wasn't lacking at all.

I hardly see how saying "some people believe in a god that created everything and demands [X] of humanity" is going to make anyone believe in an Abrahamic faith.

I've never even advocated that people be required to take religious studies courses, let alone suggested that we should cut down any of main curriculum to make room for them.

 

[AxisMundi]

My 10th grade step-sons history text begins with "Exodus" implying it`s fact.

I`ve read it it ain`t pretty.

I`ll get the name of it when he gets home and post it.

Thank you.

I would expect something like that from a text book from the 1950's, or somewhere deep in the bible belt.

I've never heard of Florida mentioned as a bible-thumper mecca.

Added in edit....

Besides, Exodus isn't neccessarily religious. Granted there isn't any archeaological evidence for such, but it isn't exactly religious dogma.

 

[AxisMundi]

I hardly see how saying "some people believe in a god that created everything and demands [X] of humanity" is going to make anyone believe in an Abrahamic faith.

Why do you think the fundies are so hell bent on getting their bible and their god back into public school curriculum?

Religion relies a lot on indoctrinating youth.

I've never even advocated that people be required to take religious studies courses, let alone suggested that we should cut down any of main curriculum to make room for them.

I agree.

 

[AxisMundi]

Any 6th grade history text book in use in California will do.

I am not from Cali.

Specific titles please.

 

[linwood]

Besides, Exodus isn't neccessarily religious. Granted there isn't any archeaological evidence for such, but it isn't exactly religious dogma.

I disagree.

Exodus is nothing but religious dogma, the best scientific theories of the rise of civilization are directly opposed to the tale of the Exodus.

Not to mention Christians and Jews have been searching the deserts for many thousands of years to find evidence of said Exodus only to fail time and time again.

The Exodus is not how humanity came out of Africa, yet my sons history book heavily implies that it is and gives no other alternatives.

 

[Kathryn]

I'd really like to know the edition and title of that history book.

 

[linwood]

I'd really like to know the edition and title of that history book.

This is it...

Amazon.com: World History: Patterns of Interaction (9780618690084): Roger B. Beck: Books

This may be a different edition than the one I saw as the cover is different.

 

[IF_u_knew]

The following is advice from the National PTA and The First Amendment Center.
I am providing this because last night my daughter told me she heard students could be expelled for bringing a Bible to school.
I told her I would be among the first to file a lawsuit if that happened to one of my children.
When I asked where she heard this, she told me she heard it from a Youth Director at a friends church.

May students express their faith while in school?
Yes. Schools should respect the right of students to engage in religious activity
and discussion.
Generally, individual students are free to pray, read their scriptures, discuss their
faith and invite others to join their particular religious group. Only if a student’s
behavior is disruptive or coercive should it be prohibited. No student should be
allowed to harass or pressure others in a public school setting.
If it is relevant to the subject under consideration and meets the requirements of
the assignment, students also have the right to express their religious views during a
class discussion or as part of a written assignment or art activity.

May students pray together in public schools?
Yes. Students are free to pray alone or in
groups, as long as the activity is not disruptive
and does not infringe upon the rights of others.
These activities must be truly voluntary and
student-initiated. For example, students are
permitted to gather around the flagpole for
prayer before school begins, as long as the event
is not sponsored by the school and other
students are not pressured to attend. Students
do not have a right to force a captive

Does this mean that students may offer prayers at graduation ceremonies?
Not necessarily. Lower courts are divided about whether a student may offer prayers at
graduation exercises. Parents should seek legal advice about what rules apply in their state.
Some schools create a “free-speech forum” at school-sponsored events, during which
time students are free to express themselves religiously or otherwise. Such a forum,
however, would have to be open to all kinds of speech, including speech critical of
religion or the school.

Is it constitutional to teach about religion in public schools?
Yes. The Supreme Court has indicated many times
that teaching about religion, as distinguished from
religious indoctrination, is an important part of a
complete education. The public school’s approach
to religion in the curriculum must be academic,
not devotional.
Study about religion belongs in the curriculum
wherever it naturally arises. On the secondary
level, the social studies, literature and the arts offer
many opportunities for the inclusion of
information about religions—their ideas and
practices. On the elementary level, natural opportunities arise in discussions of the
family and community life and in instruction about festivals and different cultures.
Religion may also be studied in special courses. Some secondary schools, for
example, offer electives in “World Religions,” “Bible as/in Literature,” and “Religion
in America.”

May students form religious clubs in public schools?
Under the federal Equal Access Act,3 secondary public schools receiving federal funds
must allow students to form religious clubs if the school allows other noncurriculumrelated
clubs to meet during noninstructional time. “Noncurriculum-related” means
any club not directly related to the courses offered by the school. Student religious
clubs may have access to school facilities and media on the same basis as other
noncurriculum-related student clubs.
The Equal Access Act protects the rights of students to form religious clubs. Outside
adults may not direct or regularly attend meetings of such clubs. Teachers may be present
at religious club meetings as monitors, but they may not participate in club activities.
Public schools are free to prohibit any club activities that are illegal or that would cause
substantial disruption of the school.

May students wear religious garb and display religious symbols in public schools?
Yes. Students who must wear religious garb such as head scarves or yarmulkes should be
permitted to do so in school. Students may also display religious messages on clothing
to the same extent that other messages are permitted.

May students distribute religious literature in the schools?
Generally, students have a right to distribute religious literature on public school
campuses subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions imposed by the
school. This means that the school may specify at what times the distribution may
occur (e.g., lunch hour or before or after classes begin), where it may occur (e.g.,
outside the school office) and how it may occur (e.g., from fixed locations as opposed
to roving distribution). These restrictions should be reasonable and must apply evenly
to all non-school student literature.
Public schools may prohibit the distribution of some literature altogether. Some
examples would be materials that are obscene, defamatory or disruptive of the
educational environment.

(PDF of entire Document)

I think the religious would have a lot more success in maintaining their rights to bring Bibles to school if they would hit the point home with this simple fact:

the last 2,000 years, almost every area of studies/life (arts, language, literature, even mathematics) has become what it is today because of the Biblical influence involved ... take into account that Shakespeare has hundreds of references in his works that are taken from the Bible <<-- that is only ONE example among far too many to state here.

Though my own personal interest in the Bible is spiritual ... it is my very life in fact ... still I do not teach it to my children w/ religion and/or the spiritual in mind, and rather I find it absolutely necessary for them to know it very well so that they have a better understanding of the world around them, and how we have come to the place we are at now as mankind ... ** without ** that understanding, then they would have no say so in where it is we are going. It is 100% essential for the sake of education (whether at home objectively or in the schools) for the Bible to be taught, known, and understood properly by our children.

Those who are opposed to it are no less religious in their efforts toward keeping it out of public education (though, here in Tx, this is less the problem ... even in the Austin area as even many non-religious see the logic in educating our children of its content) ... those that oppose simply are exercing what they claim to be against .. that is, supression of the minds of our children (in an even worse way IMHO), and it shows a lack of trust for them AS our children in regard to the future. I trust mine personally, and therefore do not suppress them from learning as they choose, and/or should for their own sake (and the sake of those around them) ...

 

[linwood]

Searching for that textbook online brought up a school board battle about it that I was unaware of.

Textbook tussle in Sarasota -- critics say book prefers Muslim faith

Florida High-School Textbook pro-Islam & Fictional - Grendel Report

It seems many Christians in my town wanted the book pulled from the curriculum because it was to pro-islamic.

I get a kick out of that.
They were railing against the lies the book told about Islam but I guess the lies it told concerning Christian theology were ok.

lol

 

[Kathryn]

This is it...

Amazon.com: World History: Patterns of Interaction (9780618690084): Roger B. Beck: Books

This may be a different edition than the one I saw as the cover is different.

According to the index in this book, Exodus is only mentioned once, on page 78. This hardly seems to be at the beginning of the book or history in general. I don't have the exact quote but maybe I can find it.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Searching for that textbook online brought up a school board battle about it that I was unaware of.

Textbook tussle in Sarasota -- critics say book prefers Muslim faith

Florida High-School Textbook pro-Islam & Fictional - Grendel Report

It seems many Christians in my town wanted the book pulled from the curriculum because it was to pro-islamic.

I get a kick out of that.
They were railing against the lies the book told about Islam but I guess the lies it told concerning Christian theology were ok.

lol

is there really such a lack of trust in our children????

Islam REALLY exists in the world ... and thus, should be taught (objectively, but with the understanding of it having a right to exist) if our children are to have a better understanding of the world around them, no? ... w/out understanding of where we are, how we got here, then there is only furthered confusion for them, no? ... I find it depressingly sad sometimes.

 

[linwood]

According to the index in this book, Exodus is only mentioned once, on page 78. This hardly seems to be at the beginning of the book or history in general. I don't have the exact quote but maybe I can find it.

But that`s just it.

"Exodus" isn`t mentioned by name at all.

However the exact fantasy of Hebrew diaspora from Egypt is told exactly as told in the Bible (A condensed version).
It is told as how our civilization began in the fertile crescent .
As if the Hebrews came and graced the rest of the crescent with their superior knowledge and civilization took off from there.
The entire first chapter in this textbook is this story.

This is absolutely a fantasy yet it`s being taught as fact in our kids textbooks.

 

[Kathryn]

But that`s just it.

"Exodus" isn`t mentioned by name at all.

However the exact fantasy of Hebrew diaspora from Egypt is told exactly as told in the Bible (A condensed version).
It is told as how our civilization began in the fertile crescent .
As if the Hebrews came and graced the rest of the crescent with their superior knowledge and civilization took off from there.
The entire first chapter in this textbook is this story.

This is absolutely a fantasy yet it`s being taught as fact in our kids textbooks.

On the Amazon link that you posted regarding the textbook, I was able to access the index and search for the term "Exodus." It was mentioned in only one reference - on page 78.

The book uses the word "Judaism" 23 times and Islam 91 times.

A look at the table of contents clearly shows that several groups of peoples are discussed BEFORE Jews are discussed, in the timeline of history. Africans, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Hindus, Buddhists, Phoenicians, Indo-Europeans, and Chinese are discussed before Jews are introduced into the text.

Amazon.com: World History: Patterns of Interaction (9780618690084): Roger B. Beck: Books

Simply go to the link and run a search within the book. You can easily pull up the table of contents and tell that the "The entire first chapter in this textbook" is simply NOT "this story."

 

[linwood]

Simply go to the link and run a search within the book. You can easily pull up the table of contents and tell that the "The entire first chapter in this textbook" is simply NOT "this story."

Kathryn,

Please forgive me but it`s been a year or more since I read this book.

It was the entire 3rd section of the first chapter which coincidentally has absolutely no bearing on the discussion we`re having so I`m unsure why this is such an important point for you however..I`ll let you have it.

I apologize for incorrectly stating this was written in the entire first chapter of textbook I briefly read over a year ago.
I`m very very sorry.

However so what?

The thing does indeed speak of the exodus as the introduction of civilization into a previously barbaric crescent.

It`s bull, a lie, crap, theology, and I find it insanely funny that he Christian nuts in my town can`t see past their own hypocrisy long enough to realize the book does exactly the same thing with their own religion that they so vehemently complain about it doing with Islam.

So exactly what is your point Kathryn?

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn,

Please forgive me but it`s been a year or more since I read this book.

It was the entire 3rd section of the first chapter which coincidentally has absolutely no bearing on the discussion we`re having so I`m unsure why this is such an important point for you however..I`ll let you have it.

I apologize for incorrectly stating this was written in the entire first chapter of textbook I briefly read over a year ago.
I`m very very sorry.

However so what?

The thing does indeed speak of the exodus as the introduction of civilization into a previously barbaric crescent.

It`s bull, a lie, crap, theology, and I find it insanely funny that he Christian nuts in my town can`t see past their own hypocrisy long enough to realize the book does exactly the same thing with their own religion that they so vehemently complain about it doing with Islam.

So exactly what is your point Kathryn?

This is your initial post to which I was responding:

My 10th grade step-sons history text begins with "Exodus" implying it`s fact.

I`ve read it it ain`t pretty.

I asked you for the title, which you provided. I then did a search via Amazon for the words "Exodus" and "Judaism" and looked through the table of contents. It was pretty apparent that the textbook does not begin with "Exodus." It was also pretty apparent that the history of the Jewish people is no more emphasized than the history of many other peoples.

You also said that their "importance" was exxagerated. I then did a search on the terms "Judaism" and "Islam" and Judaism was mentioned 23 times, while Islam was mentioned 91 times.

My point is that I was skeptical of your claims - and my research seems to give credibility to my skepticism. If you can provide actual quotes from the book you are discussing, that would perhaps clarify and bolster your assertions.

 

[gnomon]

I think you missed linwood's point.

The point is that even mentioning the Biblical story of Exodus at all in a history book as having any amount of truth is dishonest. In regards to a survey course on World History the story of Exodus serves no historical value. It may serve a cultural value. But that leaves us wondering why people would teach in a multicultural society a tale leaning strongly towards mythology in a general survey course.

For my part, I think most people glaze over this part. The story of Exodus is pounded into Americans from Church, Synagogue and Mosque. By the time kids hear about it in a classroom environment it's already a part of their psyche. Like many other tales that are either baseless, pseudo-historical or mythological.

I think a similar example is the way history textbooks have dealt with the Louisiana Purchase. Barely, if ever, is mention of the fact that the people who actually lived on the land were paid anything. It was the purchase of a claim. Not actual land.

 

[Kathryn]

I think you missed linwood's point.

The point is that even mentioning the Biblical story of Exodus at all in a history book as having any amount of truth is dishonest. In regards to a survey course on World History the story of Exodus serves no historical value. It may serve a cultural value. But that leaves us wondering why people would teach in a multicultural society a tale leaning strongly towards mythology in a general survey course.

For my part, I think most people glaze over this part. The story of Exodus is pounded into Americans from Church, Synagogue and Mosque. By the time kids hear about it in a classroom environment it's already a part of their psyche. Like many other tales that are either baseless, pseudo-historical or mythological.

I think a similar example is the way history textbooks have dealt with the Louisiana Purchase. Barely, if ever, is mention of the fact that the people who actually lived on the land were paid anything. It was the purchase of a claim. Not actual land.

I think you missed MY point.

Here is what Linwood said:

[QUOTE
"The Exodus is not how humanity came out of Africa, yet my sons history book heavily implies that it is and gives no other alternatives."

"However the exact fantasy of Hebrew diaspora from Egypt is told exactly as told in the Bible (A condensed version).
It is told as how our civilization began in the fertile crescent .
As if the Hebrews came and graced the rest of the crescent with their superior knowledge and civilization took off from there.
The entire first chapter in this textbook is this story."

][/QUOTE]

I asked for evidence that the book in question specifically teaches that the Exodus is how humanity came out of Africa (his assertion) and how it teaches that this is how civilization began in the fertile crescent, and I asked for proof that the entire first chapter of is the story of the Exodus and Jewish history, etc. These were his assertions and I thought they were pretty unbelievable considering we were talking about a public school textbook.

So I did some research into these claims and it became apparent that these claims are a gross exxageration AT BEST.

This was my point, regardless of whatever his point is.

Truth is not discerned well through exxageration and hyperbole.

 

[Magic Man]

I think you missed MY point.

Here is what Linwood said:

"The Exodus is not how humanity came out of Africa, yet my sons history book heavily implies that it is and gives no other alternatives."

"However the exact fantasy of Hebrew diaspora from Egypt is told exactly as told in the Bible (A condensed version).
It is told as how our civilization began in the fertile crescent .
As if the Hebrews came and graced the rest of the crescent with their superior knowledge and civilization took off from there.
The entire first chapter in this textbook is this story."

I asked for evidence that the book in question specifically teaches that the Exodus is how humanity came out of Africa (his assertion) and how it teaches that this is how civilization began in the fertile crescent, and I asked for proof that the entire first chapter of is the story of the Exodus and Jewish history, etc. These were his assertions and I thought they were pretty unbelievable considering we were talking about a public school textbook.

So I did some research into these claims and it became apparent that these claims are a gross exxageration AT BEST.

This was my point, regardless of whatever his point is.

Truth is not discerned well through exxageration and hyperbole.

The only thing I've seen you argue against so far is his assertion that it was the first thing in the book. You proved him wrong there. Good job. You have yet to address the issue of whether or not they present the Exodus story as fact, though.