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"Religion of Peace?"

J2hapydna

Active Member
The point is you would not write what you do, if you understood the truth of what I said. My comprehension
is fine. But yours appears sadly lacking when you write about matters relating to YHWH, Jews and Christians.
Hence the mumbo jumbo being of no relevance to the truth.

Your problem seems to be a narrow cultural one.

You don't seem to know how to discuss things with people outside your culture. I have discussed my ideas about YHWH Christianity and Judaism with Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and Christians who have had no problems with them. I think you are having trouble presenting your ideas in a secular fashion and with criticisms of your views from people who speak to you from a secular perspective

I believe you completely misunderstood what I said and are taking this discussion in a direction that it doesn't have to go. This usually happens with people who are fundamentalist nut jobs in my opinion. Are you one of them?
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Genesis 3:12 and 3:16 gives a clear picture of what is thought of women in the bible.



The OT has similar passages, so you don't want to go down this road. Both Islam and CHRISTIANITY spring from bronze age cultures that had a deplorable way of doing things. All you are doing with this is showing your ignorance about your own culture/religion or you are not ignorant and just want to indulge your bigotry and smear Muslims/Islam.



From what I understand honor killings are a cultural thing that have nothing to do with Islam. If I'm wrong feel free to tell me where in the Koran it says to perform honor killings.
No, your references to the OT need to be specifically presented, so I can specifically deal with them. The comparison is faulty and if you were as educated on the issue as you think you are, you would know that. So, pointing out what the islamic holy books say, and command, and the historical evidence that islam was very good at following these commands is bigotry. I am smearing no one, and anyone, any moslem is welcome to take me rto task if I misrepresent their books or history, few have done so, the few who have cannot and don't argue with the words as written, they fade away. Since you are big on bogus indignation, and casting slurs, but very small on knowledge, why don't you read all the books, the OT the NT, the koran and hadith, and maybe some history. When you are equipped, get back to me ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I don't think the religion is the same thing as the text. Religion is a practice. So asking me whether the quran or the bible is peaceful is not the same as asking whether Islam or Christianity is peaceful.
I dont believe the bible is peaceful, and i refuse to omit the OT because the NT refers back to it, not to mention it's the same God. I don't believe the idea of 'one faith will survive everyone else will die,' which I believe is represented by 'judgement day is peaceful. I also don't believe the notion of Hell and is peaceful. I also don't believe Paul's instruction was peaceful, particularly on women or gays.

But none of this has to do with whether Christians are peaceful. Similarly with Muslims. And, I repeat, my interpretation is not held by me as anything more than my interpretation. I do not superimpose it on the beliefs of others.

Edit: Happy birthday, by the way.
Thanks for the HB. True Christians follow the NT as written. Based on the koran, true Muslims follow it. I find violent and degrading passages in it, as well as the hadith. Actually "hell" as most people envision it isn't in the Bible, it is translated from "sheol" Aramaic for grave, and "hades", ancient Greek for, grave. But that's another issue. We will simply have to agree to disagree
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
Faulty steel columns. No one expect debris to be flung at the building.
But they say it was a faulty column where the metal buckled and so caused the stability of the building to become unstable and collapse.
We do not know what the hijacking caused to the functions of the plane.
But we do know radio transmission can be made from the plane.

When disasters happen they are more informed after than before.
Truth is had the planes not hit two buildings then the rest could not have happened.

And, what about the building #7? It was not on fire. It went down if some buddy pulled it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Why don't you give me an example of where you find history suggesting a different story? Thanks
Historically, once mohammed came out of Arabia wirh his followers, they set out on conquest. I find little evidence for seeing these wars as defensive in nature. In Christian country's that were conquered, Christianity ceased to be. Islam never seemed to find a border it wanted to keep, fighting right up to the gates of vienna after invading austria. Of course, in India, huge moslem empires were carved out of peoples and lands that had never been moslem. I read in the koran, and hadith, about conquering the lands of the infidels. Doesn't history show that this advice (commands) was followed ?
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
Your problem seems to be a narrow cultural one.

You don't seem to know how to discuss things with people outside your culture. I have discussed my ideas about YHWH Christianity and Judaism with Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and Christians who have had no problems with them. I think you are having trouble presenting your ideas in a secular fashion and with criticisms of your views from people who speak to you from a secular perspective

I believe you completely misunderstood what I said and are taking this discussion in a direction that it doesn't have to go. This usually happens with people who are fundamentalist nut jobs in my opinion. Are you one of them?

Do you not have a living relationship with God where he can tell you what to say when pressed for answers?

King James Bible
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



I do not require the confirmation of men or assurance of men when taught by God.
Hence you are taught by scholars and so seek the confirmation of their knowledge and reassurance of what you believe.
I have no trouble with anything God teaches us in his word. It appears you cannot understand anything not taught by
a scholar. Truth has one source from God to man,. the Holy Spirit and God himself can open the minds of those whom he chooses. As Christ said:King James Bible
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I have spoken the truth about the word of God for which of those truths do you call me a nut job.

Surely you do not believe your opinion outside the word of God actually gives you the right to judge me?

Jeremiah 31:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


God is my judge...


 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
And, what about the building #7? It was not on fire. It went down if some buddy pulled it.
It has been hit by debris according to reports.
The building, which was situated next to New York’s Twin Towers, crumbled after the planes hit the towers.

Conspiracy theorists have long suggested "controlled explosions" were carried out in the building – but the official version of events says flaming debris from the burning Twin Towers flew into the 47-floor skyscraper.

Tower 7, which housed the Secret Service, the CIA, the Department of Defence and the Office of Emergency Management, collapsed after seven hours of burning.

Appears it was on fire...
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Doesn't a BIG part of Christianity center around being generous, kind, and loving? The west starts the trouble that causes millions of people to flee their homes for their own safety then scoffs at having to help any of these same people afterward. Anyone who says the west is full of Christian nations that actually follow Christ's teachings is delusional.

It seems you're blurring a lot of lines here and being a bit selective in the bits of history you're using?

Some examples:

- "the west" did not start and sustain the 1000 year conflict between Sunni and Shia.
- "the west" did not initiate Islamic expansionism during Islam's first 1000 years.
- more recently, "the west" did not chase virtually all the Christians out of Turkey
- "the west" is not chasing virtually all of the Christians out of the ME
- "the west" doesn't impose apostasy laws on the ME
and so on.

This is not to say that there haven't been some horrible western interventions - there have been. But to imply that the Muslim world is in the shape it's in because "the west" is, as you say, delusional.
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
Historically, once mohammed came out of Arabia wirh his followers, they set out on conquest. I find little evidence for seeing these wars as defensive in nature. In Christian country's that were conquered, Christianity ceased to be. Islam never seemed to find a border it wanted to keep, fighting right up to the gates of vienna after invading austria. Of course, in India, huge moslem empires were carved out of peoples and lands that had never been moslem. I read in the koran, and hadith, about conquering the lands of the infidels. Doesn't history show that this advice (commands) was followed ?

Thanks for the question, looking at history of the period I see that there were four major groups during the ministry of MP,

the Pagans led by Abu Suffiyan of the Koresh,

the Persians led by Chosroes,

the Christians led by Heraclius

the Christians led by Najashi in the Axumite Empire.

All four groups were offered an opportunity to not be extremists and live peacefully. Three of them rejected that offer. The fourth led by Najashi accepted.

So Najashi's Christian empire was spared the Jihad and humiliation of paying Jizya upon direct orders of MP. Najashi was a Muslim Christian meaning he wasn't an extremist. When he died MP honored him like nobody else in history. MP offered an absentee funeral prayer for his soul. This MP didn't even do for the Muslim martyrs in wars. The Pagan Arabs scoffed at at MP for saying a funeral prayer for someone who didn't face the Kaba in and didn't follow MPs religion.

During MPs ministry one of his most formidable and cruelest enemies was Abu Suffiyan the pagan ruler of Koresh in Mecca. Abu Suffiyan and his wife planned and plotted to assassinate MP several times. They brutally desecrated the bodies of Muslims after they died in wars. They even plotted to gather men from several tribes to assassinate MP as he slept so no one tribe would be held responsible. When MP escaped Abu Suffiyan tried to hunt him down himself and murder MP . In other words this was not a run of the mill pagan who didn't accept MP. This was a man on a mission to kill. The Quran is pretty clear on how such people should be punished who try to attack the prophet. I'm sure you are familiar with the verse, crucify them and cut their hands and feet etc. so when the time came, MP attacked Mecca and the city laid down its arms, Abu Suffiyan received justice from MP. He, his wife and Son Muawiyya were told they could leave Mecca or convert, in the hope they would learn the meaning of if mercy and forgiveness. Two years later MP died. 20 years later Abu Suffiyan's son Muawiyya became the caliph. He willed his throne to his son Yazid who butchered The residents of Mecca and Medina as well as slaughtered MPs grandson and other members of MPs family. My point is these people didn't know the first thing about mercy and forgiveness. Their conduct was polls apart from that of MP.

As far as Heraclius was concerned his cruelty towards non Christians in general and the Jews in particular was legendary. He bainished them from Jerusalem and issued a proclamation to murder them all anywhere in his empire that now included Persia. He made this proclamation after making a pact with the Jews to treat them fairly if they helped him defeat the Persians. Heraclius was a psychopath megalomaniac who sacked the Persian temples and palaces of their treasures and used them to pay off his debts to the church. Flush with money after looting Persia, he was planning on using the rest of his loot to raise armies to invade Arabia, India and China.

A fifth group was Jews. There were two kinds. There was a splinter group in southern Arabia with Sadduceean tendencies who worked with the pagans and plotted against MP. Then there were mainstream Jews with their exilarchs in Baghdad. The mainstream Jews worked with the Rashidun. Consequently, Umer restored the exilarchs to the position of princes for the first time since the time of Jesus and permitted them to wear their signet rings. In addition, Umer could have turned a blind eye and grandfathered the laws of Heraclius to murder Jews. However, he didn't do this. He reversed those laws and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. The relations between the Rashidun and Jews was cordial. Caliph Ali was in Kuffa - a Jewish town near Baghdad. When Muawiyya attacked the Jews sided with Ali.

Eventually however Muawiyya son of Abu Suffiyan gathered the support of all the ex pagan Arabs and rose to power. He also set his son to become the next ruler and establish a dynasty. These people were more interested in looting than spreading Islam. They created the Sharia but knew nothing about what MP was teaching. This is obvoius from how they know nothing about verses such as 28:48-50 and 3:199 in the Quran but everything about how to rape plunder and conquer. They accused Jews and Christians of corrupting the Bible but did nothing to learn from the Muslim Christians in Ethiopia about the Bible used by MP. They learned nothing from the mercy shown by MP to their parents and grandparents
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the question, looking at history of the period I see that there were four major groups during the ministry of MP,

the Pagans led by Abu Suffiyan of the Koresh,

the Persians led by Chosroes,

the Christians led by Heraclius

the Christians led by Najashi in the Axumite Empire.

All four groups were offered an opportunity to not be extremists and live peacefully. Three of them rejected that offer. The fourth led by Najashi accepted.

So Najashi's Christian empire was spared the Jihad and humiliation of paying Jizya upon direct orders of MP. Najashi was a Muslim Christian meaning he wasn't an extremist. When he died MP honored him like nobody else in history. MP offered an absentee funeral prayer for his soul. This MP didn't even do for the Muslim martyrs in wars. The Pagan Arabs scoffed at at MP for saying a funeral prayer for someone who didn't face the Kaba in and didn't follow MPs religion.

During MPs ministry one of his most formidable and cruelest enemies was Abu Suffiyan the pagan ruler of Koresh in Mecca. Abu Suffiyan and his wife planned and plotted to assassinate MP several times. They brutally desecrated the bodies of Muslims after they died in wars. They even plotted to gather men from several tribes to assassinate MP as he slept so no one tribe would be held responsible. When MP escaped Abu Suffiyan tried to hunt him down himself and murder MP . In other words this was not a run of the mill pagan who didn't accept MP. This was a man on a mission to kill. The Quran is pretty clear on how such people should be punished who try to attack the prophet. I'm sure you are familiar with the verse, crucify them and cut their hands and feet etc. so when the time came, MP attacked Mecca and the city laid down its arms, Abu Suffiyan received justice from MP. He, his wife and Son Muawiyya were told they could leave Mecca or convert, in the hope they would learn the meaning of if mercy and forgiveness. Two years later MP died. 20 years later Abu Suffiyan's son Muawiyya became the caliph. He willed his throne to his son Yazid who butchered The residents of Mecca and Medina as well as slaughtered MPs grandson and other members of MPs family. My point is these people didn't know the first thing about mercy and forgiveness. Their conduct was polls apart from that of MP.

As far as Heraclius was concerned his cruelty towards non Christians in general and the Jews in particular was legendary. He bainished them from Jerusalem and issued a proclamation to murder them all anywhere in his empire that now included Persia. He made this proclamation after making a pact with the Jews to treat them fairly if they helped him defeat the Persians. Heraclius was a psychopath megalomaniac who sacked the Persian temples and palaces of their treasures and used them to pay off his debts to the church. Flush with money after looting Persia, he was planning on using the rest of his loot to raise armies to invade Arabia, India and China.

A fifth group was Jews. There were two kinds. There was a splinter group in southern Arabia with Sadduceean tendencies who worked with the pagans and plotted against MP. Then there were mainstream Jews with their exilarchs in Baghdad. The mainstream Jews worked with the Rashidun. Consequently, Umer restored the exilarchs to the position of princes for the first time since the time of Jesus and permitted them to wear their signet rings. In addition, Umer could have turned a blind eye and grandfathered the laws of Heraclius to murder Jews. However, he didn't do this. He reversed those laws and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. The relations between the Rashidun and Jews was cordial. Caliph Ali was in Kuffa - a Jewish town near Baghdad. When Muawiyya attacked the Jews sided with Ali.

Eventually however Muawiyya son of Abu Suffiyan gathered the support of all the ex pagan Arabs and rose to power. He also set his son to become the next ruler and establish a dynasty. These people were more interested in looting than spreading Islam. They created the Sharia but knew nothing about what MP was teaching. This is obvoius from how they know nothing about verses such as 28:48-50 and 3:199 in the Quran but everything about how to rape plunder and conquer. They accused Jews and Christians of corrupting the Bible but did nothing to learn from the Muslim Christians in Ethiopia about the Bible used by MP. They learned nothing from the mercy shown by MP to their parents and grandparents
OK, that can account for the immediate area. Turkey was a Christian country, and the majority in Egypt were Christians. Eastern European Countries, Albania, all of what used to be called Yugoslavia was Christian, and except for a small portion still Christian, who fought very hard against the invasion, it is now moslem. So I will accept your explanation re Arabia, but what about the other examples from history ?
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
OK, that can account for the immediate area. Turkey was a Christian country, and the majority in Egypt were Christians. Eastern European Countries, Albania, all of what used to be called Yugoslavia was Christian, and except for a small portion still Christian, who fought very hard against the invasion, it is now moslem. So I will accept your explanation re Arabia, but what about the other examples from history ?
The other examples were megalomaniacs copying the Umayyads and following their Sharia. Those who looked up to Najashi as an example didn't engage in conquests, didn't participate in humiliating others. Najashi didn't create a new state sponsored religion or legal system. His followers didn't extract Jizya from peace loving Christians and didn't engage in conquests. However, under the Umayyad Sharia they were branded non Muslims for believing in the Bible. They were double taxed and humiliated into paying the Jizya. They became outcasts, the equivalent of Jewish Christians in the Christian empire who were ridiculed and derided too
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
Do you not have a living relationship with God where he can tell you what to say when pressed for answers?

King James Bible
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I do not require the confirmation of men or assurance of men when taught by God.
Hence you are taught by scholars and so seek the confirmation of their knowledge and reassurance of what you believe.
I have no trouble with anything God teaches us in his word. It appears you cannot understand anything not taught by
a scholar. Truth has one source from God to man,. the Holy Spirit and God himself can open the minds of those whom he chooses. As Christ said:King James Bible
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I have spoken the truth about the word of God for which of those truths do you call me a nut job.

Surely you do not believe your opinion outside the word of God actually gives you the right to judge me?

Jeremiah 31:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


God is my judge...
As I said, your ideas are limited by your cultural upbringing . You think you are sharing some incredible wisdom. I understand and thank you

Moses didn't just believe. He saw a burning bush and went to the mountain and came down with tablets. He performed miracles for all to see. in Isaiah 19:12 he makes it clear that he can tell what will happen to Egypt in the future. So he challenges the Egyptian gods to do the same. The same is true in Matt 24 - a complex set of prophecies. You are specifically warned not to accept stories of miracle workers in dark rooms and distant secluded places where people claim some great person lives who speaks to god. The Bible says they will deceive the elect. So the god who speaks to you in your private room is not the one we are looking for.

We are suppose to be looking for the coming of the son of man that would be from east to west i.e. it will be witnessed by all. According to Daniel perhaps 390 years after the desolation. The temple began to be destroyed around 33 CE when Jesus was crucified. Then again around 70 or 73 CE. after the first rebellion. Then completely by 135 - 138 CE. after the second rebellion. So the signs of his coming should have begun somewhere between 523 CE - 628 CE. The Jews and Christians would have patiently been waiting for this.

So what we are looking for is something that caused the sun to dim and the plague to strike the earth between 523 CE and 628 CE.

Sixth-Century Misery Tied to Not One, But Two, Volcanic Eruptions | Science | Smithsonian

Do you know if something like this ever happened in that time frame?
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
This sums up the problem.



She refuses to answer the question and is defended by some do-gooder.
Excellent video that shows how many moslems refuse to hold their religion accountable for one scintilla of it's chronic and long standing violence. Recently, in the peoples republic of kalifornia, a man with the last name of mohammed, shouting alihu akbar (sp?) shot down and murdered a total of four people. In that liberal enclave it had nothing to do with religion or terrorism.

BTW I like your avitar, I am old enough to remember the show, though I liked Patrick Mc Goohan much better in "secret agent"


She refuses to answer the question and is defended by some do-gooder.[/QUOTE]
 

hughwatt

Member
Technically, men are in charge of women. Men have protected women for many years, from caves to gated villages, they protected them against tigers and invaders who were looking for women to take home. How do you think Mongolian Empire started? It all started with women being stolen. And, so Khan build a little army and took his woman back.
My post was in regards to Islamic sources harsh treatment of females. Read #525.
 
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