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"Religion of Peace?"

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
At least this makes clear the why as to your profound ignorance of Muslim culture.

Zero knowledge, just what the unlearned spew, an assumed historical narrative so far from reality it should make your head spin when you figure out how misinformed you've been. A pbs documentary could clear that myth up in 45 minutes.

I've read the Quran from cover to cover, have you? I've read two different biographies of Muhammad, have you? I've studied the history of the world, from various sources, and they disagree only on minor points. How have your studies gone? How about that Muslim slave trade in Africa? How about the invasion of Spain? Or the invasion of the Pakistan region and genocide of the Hindus? How about more recently the forced exodus of Christians out of Turkey? How about the fact that in the last 100 years Christians have gone from about 15% of the population of the ME to about 4%?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My religion is at peace provided it is not in Syria or Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, where they are being killed daily.

Innocent civilians.

Otherwise Islam will always be at peace and even manages to be at peace in the most miserable conditions imaginable.

To struggle against oppression is to serve God. It brings peace.

You call yourself a gnostic. As I understand it that can mean different things. Can you say more about your definition of "gnostic"? thanks
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Or you know, if they happen to be the wrong faith and don't want to submit to you.

We have to remember that every single Muslim is exactly the same and believes in the same thing. I guess that's why there's different branches of Islam teaching different things.

But they read the same book so they must agree on everything. After all, I guess Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians are the same because they read the New Testament.

I already befriended Muslims and not one of them tried to force convert me. Shouldn't that be proof enough that there are good Muslims as well as bad?

And people want Muslims to condemn terrorism. Doesn't make sense since there are not only Muslims condemning it but actually fighting against it. It never occurs to anyone who dumb it is to say Many Muslims support terrorism, yet Isis and Boko Haraam both have killed many Muslims?

And I don't see anyone demanding that the Buddhists condemn the acts of the militaristic Buddhists over in Burma or demand that Jews must condemn what corrupt Zionists have done. Or demand that every Christian condemn the acts of the Lord's Resistance Army. But every Muslim has to parade out in the street and condemn it, even though there are already Muslims condemning it? I don't get that.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If a Muslim wants to live in a Sharia system of law it is their culture and worked for a very long time.

However, importing it to European countries or America is not something that Islam has any wish to do, in any form or sect.

They can live Sharia in Europe and America, anywhere, it doesn't need to be enforced by the law of the land to be practiced.

Just like American Jews and Halakha. Same thing.

Except the television hasn't told you to fear Halakha, although it is a bigger threat, because, well, you know why.

Noachide Law, anyone?
In my study of Islam, I realized that "Sharia" is one of those words that many non-Muslims don't understand. I agree with you about Jewish law, Halakha, being analogous.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
We have to remember that every single Muslim is exactly the same and believes in the same thing. I guess that's why there's different branches of Islam teaching different things.

But they read the same book so they must agree on everything. After all, I guess Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians are the same because they read the New Testament.

Seriously, are you capable of making any argument on this subject that isn't just beating a strawman into dust?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So peaceful, that they let the violent and extremist Muslims do whatever they want, without doing or saying anything to oppose or condemn such actions.
Far worse than that, unfortunately. The usual response seems to be instead to actually demand others to agree with them on claiming that the extremists are "not really Muslims".
 
I would say that when the scriptures were created - by humans - they documented the best moral thinking of the day.

That's the mobius effect.

Society influences religion which influences society which influences religion which influences...
 
genocide of the Hindus

There wasn't one. It's propaganda. A myth.

There was a pretty standard medieval conquest. It's not like the world was peaceful back then and had the Mongols not invaded everything would have been sweetness and light.

Local sources tend to identify the invaders as Turks rather than Muslims which is a bit strange if they were carrying out a religiously motivated genocide. Timur also saw himself as representing Ghengis Khan's legacy, not that of the Early Islamic conquests.

PBS has an excellent documentary called "Empire of Faith" on YouTube. Anyone who wants to trash Islam and claim it wasn't a tolerant society by even modern standards, and an advanced one far ahead of its time at that, needs a wake up call.

It was, even as Europe wallowed in its own filth just to the north of Muslims Spain, with its endless killings, Inquisitions and oppression into ignorance of Europe called the Dark Ages, Muslim Spain had Christians, Jews, Muslims and anyone in the world who wanted an education either went their or Baghdad.

Use of the word tolerant is a bit anachronistic for any medieval society (especially a conquest oriented one) as the concept is decidedly modern.

By modern standards it certainly wasn't tolerant though as non-Muslims were, on the whole, jizya paying 2nd class citizens. Numerous churches were demolished or converted into Mosques (such as that of St Vincent which was replaced by the Grand Cordoba Mosque) Women, like elsewhere at that time, were not equal. Slavery was normal part of society, etc.

Also the name dark ages relates to the relative lack of historical texts from the period, and it was nowhere near as backward as you are presenting it although the decline of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Islamic Empire did have negative economic effects on Europe as it made international trade more difficult which compounded the obvious social upheaval of the end of Roman rule.
 

hughwatt

Member
It would mean understanding why people accept MP as a prophet and the Quran as scripture.

The Quran, Hadith and Sunnah is for sharia observant Sunni Muslims. There are many others who use the word Islam to define their faith and aren't Shariah observant Sunni. So for this reason alone you are misusing the term Islam.

In essence, you are siding with ISIS who consider themselves Shariah observant Sunni Muslims who are trying to hijack the term Islam when you use their definition of Islam.
That made no sense.
 

hughwatt

Member
Yes, in that I think that telling anyone that your interpretation of an idea, philosophy or text is what they believe is both presumptuous and putting words in their mouth.
When discussing or questioning what individual Muslims believe, your interpretation doesn't matter, only theirs.

Which is why threads leading with 'Is Islam really peaceful?' could be met with, 'Here we go again. Another person who doesn't like Islam is going to try and tell me what it is I really believe, instead of honestly asking what it is I believe.'

Same as when threads start off with 'Is Christianity really homophobic.'
Do you have a Islamic reference to support this? Just one.
 

hughwatt

Member
A common definition of "Islamist" is any Muslim who thinks that Sharia should be the law of the land. That's the definition I use. This Sharia worldview is in stark conflict with secularism. The two are simply not compatible. So I guess it's a matter of definition, but for my money, it's unlikely for secularists to be at peace with anyone who wants the world to be ruled by Sharia. Sadly, their are hundreds of millions of Islamists in the world. Maybe 25% to 40% of all the world's Muslims are Islamists based on this definition.
You quoted me then ignored everything I said. I never used the word "Islamist."

Title, "Religion of Peace" not, are Islamists peaceful?
 

hughwatt

Member
I doubt you learned your morals from your scripture. My guess is that you brought good morals into your studies of your scripture and you used those pre-existing good morals to know which parts of scripture to agree with and which to disagree with.

Or maybe I have it wrong! Are you one of those people who believe that if a husband discovers that his bride is not a virgin she should be stoned to death?
Start another thread about that. This one's taken. :)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You quoted me then ignored everything I said. I never used the word "Islamist."

Title, "Religion of Peace" not, are Islamists peaceful?

I did my best to bring some distinctions to what I felt was a scattered OP. You touched on terrorism, biased media and calls for blasphemy. All good topics, but somewhat disconnected.
 

hughwatt

Member
To all on this thread: I thank you for your engaging here but having read through a few of the posts since I last logged-on the main topic seems to have been derailed. Whilst I am willing to dialogue with others about other subjects this particular one on Islam being a "Religion of Peace?" is what I wanted to put out there for comment.

Please respect this as I would if you posted on a specific topic.

Thank you to all.
 

hughwatt

Member
I did my best to bring some distinctions to what I felt was a scattered OP. You touched on terrorism, biased media and calls for blasphemy. All good topics, but somewhat disconnected.
My main source of reasoning is from Islamic texts. If I were being biased against Islam I would go along with the popularly promoted media spin on Islam being a "religion of peace" which is not supported by any fair citing of the Koran, Hadith or Sunnah.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My main source of reasoning is from Islamic texts. If I were being biased against Islam I would go along with the popularly promoted media spin on Islam being a "religion of peace" which is not supported by any fair citing of the Koran, Hadith or Sunnah.

I didn't say "you" were biased. But I read your OP to mean that you wanted to discuss media bias, among other things. If I got that wrong, what did you mean by that part of your OP?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My main source of reasoning is from Islamic texts. If I were being biased against Islam I would go along with the popularly promoted media spin on Islam being a "religion of peace" which is not supported by any fair citing of the Koran, Hadith or Sunnah.

Does this mean that what you really want to talk about is what conclusions we can draw about Islam if all we use is a parsimonious reading of the scripture?
 
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