"Religion of Peace?"

[hughwatt]

I didn't say "you" were biased. But I read your OP to mean that you wanted to discuss media bias, among other things. If I got that wrong, what did you mean by that part of your OP?

My questions boil down to this: Will the real Islam please stand up.

Is the Muslim next door giving the truer interpretation of Islam when they say "Islam is a religion of peace" and the leftist liberal secularists who parrot them? Or is there something in those many many Islamic texts which say otherwise?

 

[hughwatt]

Does this mean that what you really want to talk about is what conclusions we can draw about Islam if all we use is a parsimonious reading of the scripture?

Hitler's Mein Kampf was his manifesto for world domination. Had enough people read it and taken it/him seriously he may have been stopped.

If people want to know what the terrorists agenda is and why they do what they're doing where do you think we can learn their ideas from?

 

[icehorse]

My questions boil down to this: Will the real Islam please stand up.

Is the Muslim next door giving the truer interpretation of Islam when they say "Islam is a religion of peace" and the leftist liberal secularists who parrot them? Or is there something in those many many Islamic texts which say otherwise?

I think the best we can do is provide some statistical answers, because there is no "real Islam".

- All Abrahamic scripture is horrific.
- There are some fundamentalist Christians who take their scripture seriously.
- There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who take their scripture seriously.
- There are probably somewhat more Muslims who take their scripture with a grain of salt.

 

[hughwatt]

I think the best we can do is provide some statistical answers, because there is no "real Islam".

- All Abrahamic scripture is horrific.
- There are some fundamentalist Christians who take their scripture seriously.
- There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who take their scripture seriously.
- There are probably somewhat more Muslims who take their scripture with a grain of salt.

Do you know what Islam means?

Why would you put Islamic scripture in the Abrahamic class?

 

[hughwatt]

To repeat a few points - every religion has scripture which indicates that one should go to war, including Christianity. Every religion has scripture indicating that people should be loving and peaceful, including Islam. Every religion has a set of "thou shalt" which can be turned into laws (see Christian reconstructionism, for example) or religious laws in Israel or even old fashioned "blue laws" in the USA. Every religion has adherents who selectively apply what the scripture says.

About Islam, I've read translations which have a few passages that are absolutely contradictory leaving me to agree with Muslims who say that a translation is not the same as the original text.

So when a Muslim commits an atrocity are they doing so in-keeping with Islamic sources or against?

 

[hughwatt]

If Islam isn't a religion of peace (meaning it's doctrine isn't peaceful) then all the peaceful Muslims are not real Muslims unless they are not peaceful to reflect the name of their unpeaceful religion?

If Islam is a "religion of peace" as some Muslims and leftist liberals state where do the jihadists get their violent actions from?

 

[hughwatt]

I would say 'no'. If the violent, intolerant parts of Islam (I'm talking about the doctrine, not the followers, mind) don't make it violent then the peaceful aspects like charity and the like don't make it peaceful.

One of the most frustrating parts about this sort of argument is that Muslims who defend Islam so often cite the actions of other religions' adherents or the doctrines of other religions as a sort of 'we're not worse than them' argument (tu quoque fallacy) while at the same time accepting the doctrine of Islamic exceptionalism - that Islam is the complete & pure religion of God, that all others are either corrupted versions of originally pure doctrines or at worst purely man-made with no divine revelation. So basically they try to set Islam up as being superior to other religions, then try to defend their position by using inferior religions as a benchmark for what the rest of us should put up with from Islam & its followers.

Well said.

Victimhood is one of the main tactics of Muslims I've noticed. They often cite the Crusades, as though this excuses the jihadists.

Now when you say this, do you mean that 99.999% of Muslims don't actually engage in acts of violence themselves? Because while that might be true, the number of Muslims who hold attitudes sympathetic with such violent & intolerant actions is far larger than many would like to admit.

Which scares many so better keep this to ourselves.

 

[hughwatt]

If a Muslim wants to live in a Sharia system of law it is their culture and worked for a very long time.

However, importing it to European countries or America is not something that Islam has any wish to do, in any form or sect.

Really?!

 

[icehorse]

Do you know what Islam means?

This is far too vague a question, there are many answers.

Why would you put Islamic scripture in the Abrahamic class?

You appear to be using some unusual definitions? How are YOU relating a religion to its scripture? To me a religion's scripture is an integral part of the religion.

 

[hughwatt]

This is far too vague a question, there are many answers.

Do you know what "Islam" means?

You appear to be using some unusual definitions? How are YOU relating a religion to its scripture? To me a religion's scripture is an integral part of the religion.

How do you figure Islamic texts to be Abrahamic?

 

[hughwatt]

I want to import sharia law to Ukraine. And sharia law could work for South America aka the most criminal region of the world. Instead of putting drug lords to prisons, one will execute them. It will send the message across the region. New sheriff in town.

How about apostates?

 

[icehorse]

Do you know what "Islam" means?

Sorry, too vague. Do you mean the word, the ideas, the history, cultural impacts...?

How do you figure Islamic texts to be Abrahamic?[/QUOTE]

Because they plagiarize heavily from the Bible.

==

Back to the OP. You're asking a statistical question, not a black and white question. And "peaceful" vs. "not-peaceful" have to be considered within a system of variables. That said, to the degree that we can isolate the impact of religion on complex systems, I would say that Islam is statistically the least peaceful major religion in modern times.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Do you know what Islam means?

Why would you put Islamic scripture in the Abrahamic class?

Presumably because Muhammad claims to be worshipping the god of Abraham; and because it's likely that Judaism & Christianity influenced Islam's early beginnings.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I want to import sharia law to Ukraine. And sharia law could work for South America aka the most criminal region of the world. Instead of putting drug lords to prisons, one will execute them. It will send the message across the region. New sheriff in town.

Why do you think Islamic religious law should be applied against non-Muslims? Do you believe this is in any way just or fair?

 

[EtuMalku]

Sorry I'm late to the hizb!

Many people in the West have taken to saying or believing that "Islam is a religion of peace". Few Muslims, and especially those living in the West, have challenged this misrepresentation. It is a misrepresentation because what is meant by "peace" is what the West means by peace: a universal concept, or ideal, which implies the possibility of diverse peoples, with diverse ways of life, living in some kind of pacifist harmony so that something akin to "the happiness of the greatest number" is possible.

The crucial point to consider here is that, for Islam, peace is the submission to Allah and the safety which Allah alone can provide. For devout Muslims, this worldly peace can only arise when there is a Khilafah - a true Islamic society, based upon Islamic law, and Islamic law alone.

 

[hughwatt]

Sorry, too vague. Do you mean the word, the ideas, the history, cultural impacts...?

Let me quote from a Muslim site:

In Arabic, the word

“Islam” means submission or surrender – however, it was derived from the root word “salam”. From this root word, you can also derive the words peace and safety. Many people feel that Islam implies some sort of enslavement to Allah, but others find it more helpful to define the word “Islam” as surrender.

Because they plagiarize heavily from the Bible.

There is no authentication in plagiarism. That's why it's called plagiarism.

Back to the OP. You're asking a statistical question, not a black and white question. And "peaceful" vs. "not-peaceful" have to be considered within a system of variables. That said, to the degree that we can isolate the impact of religion on complex systems, I would say that Islam is statistically the least peaceful major religion in modern times.

I'm asking a question not based upon popular media opinion be that by Muslims or leftist liberal secularists who are given air time but core Islamic texts.

 

[Aberamentho]

I've read the Quran from cover to cover, have you?

If you truly have you know it has rights for women, preaches religious tolerance, and even proper concuct in battle, doesn't declare only Muslims go to Heaven like certain other religious texts, Christian mainly.

You should know it is a very just book, if you don't you don't understand it, which is common.

I've read two different biographies of Muhammad, have you? I've studied the history of the world, from various sources, and they disagree only on minor points. How have your studies gone? How about that Muslim slave trade in Africa? How about the invasion of Spain? Or the invasion of the Pakistan region and genocide of the Hindus? How about more recently the forced exodus of Christians out of Turkey? How about the fact that in the last 100 years Christians have gone from about 15% of the population of the ME to about 4%?

I think you are more misinformed by bias than anything, Mohammed's biography is inspiring so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

Your information sounds scattered and poorly researched. It is definitely poorly presented, can you cite some reliable sources, I would love learn about this?

Turkey is no longer controlled by Islam, it is actually a Masonic-Zionist outpost, I imagine that's why.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Do you have a Islamic reference to support this? Just one.

Islamic reference to support what? What claim am I making about Islam? The same thing I'm saying of Islam could and is said about Christianity.

 

[hughwatt]

Sorry I'm late to the hizb!

Many people in the West have taken to saying or believing that "Islam is a religion of peace". Few Muslims, and especially those living in the West, have challenged this misrepresentation. It is a misrepresentation because what is meant by "peace" is what the West means by peace: a universal concept, or ideal, which implies the possibility of diverse peoples, with diverse ways of life, living in some kind of pacifist harmony so that something akin to "the happiness of the greatest number" is possible.

The crucial point to consider here is that, for Islam, peace is the submission to Allah and the safety which Allah alone can provide. For devout Muslims, this worldly peace can only arise when there is a Khilafah - a true Islamic society, based upon Islamic law, and Islamic law alone.

Welcome to the party. With comments like that, come on in. Let me take your coat. Please, allow me to get you a soda and a bite to eat.

 

[sovietchild]

Why do you think Islamic religious law should be applied against non-Muslims? Do you believe this is in any way just or fair?

It has nothing to do with religions. Its more of a reaction to an action. Adultery runs high in Europe, sharia law could fix that. Alcohol number one killer, sharia law could fix that. You don't have to worry about your kids doing drugs at school because under sharia law will execute drug lords.