"Religion of Peace?"

[RESOLUTION]

Aberamentho

What you believe and what we know are two different thing's.

Firstly, My friends 5 cousins all captains in the USA fire department attended the blazes that day.
The youngest was in one of the towers when it collapsed.
I watched the second plane hit the towers live on tv.
We saw footage of live coverage and also calls from planes one brought down before hitting target,

How can anyone refuse to accept that terrorism was responsible?

I am not going to be drawn into a debate about you wanting to excuse terrorist fighting in the name of Islam from being responsible.

So let us make a quick statement for you to think about.

Whatever you believe about the 9/11 the fact that muslims in Islamic countries kill their own people in the street for sinning
shows how barbaric the reality of such a religion really is. Under that evidence I see no reason to doubt who was truly
responsible for the 9/11, The fact someone claiming to be from a 'peaceful religion' can try and excuse such actions
and remove blame elsewhere is actually dumbfounding by all sense of reason.

In 2010 there were 2.8 billion Christians not counting any other religion like the Jews who believe in YHWH.
But the number does not interest me. Because clearly YHWH is the only God to have actually done anything as far as gods go.
So he can still claim to be the only God. Whilst he is charge you haven't a chance of your beliefs being fulfilled.
Thank God.


Your terrorist, Islams terrorist still use the verses I quoted to action their killings.
Whatever verses you bring does not stop that being true. I am not interested in helping you try and excuse yourself or your religion for the part in plays (however small or large)
in the actions of terrorist.

To the honour of the true God , YHWH and all those people who have been hurt and murdered in the name of your religion, I will not give you a platform to dishonour their memories
or the greatest gift they gave for others to defend and help them... their lives.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Allah is God.

And everyone knows 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam, though it is hard to tell these days it's been ten years since the truth came out. Where have you been?
Allah is the same God Jesus, Moses and Abraham (pbwt) had.

In your dreams... YHWH is not allah. YHWH not the god of islam he is the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob. He had a covenant with them but none with Mahomet or even Ishmael.

 

[hughwatt]

Muslim means a believer. In Islam we believe everyone was born as believer. Prophet Muhammad once said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah"

"When a child is born, it has with it a natural belief in God. This natural belief is called in Arabic the “Fitrah”. If the child were left alone, it would grow up aware of God in His oneness, but all children are affected by the pressures of their environment whether directly or indirectly.

The Prophet said, “Each child is born in a state of “Fitrah”, but his parents make him a Jew or a Christian. It is like the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any (young animal) born mutilated before you mutilate them?”"

The Fitrah - The Religion of Islam

Then by Muhammad's own definition of how a person becomes a Muslim contradicts the shahada. Explain how people became Muslim before Muhammad.

 

[hughwatt]

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Surah 9:5

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Surah 9:29

 

[J2hapydna]

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Surah 9:5

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Surah 9:29

I believe this was specifically about Christians and pagans who had openly declared war on and were committed to eradicating peaceful Muslims and other non Christians. However the psychopathic Umayyads twisted these commands to serve their own political ambitions. No?

 

[J2hapydna]

In your dreams... YHWH is not allah. YHWH not the god of islam he is the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob. He had a covenant with them but none with Mahomet or even Ishmael.

It seems like in Isaiah 19 he promised to provide them a savior too. No?

 

[Aberamentho]

Wow people get upset when they can't successfully and factually make the religion of Islam what they want it to be, and when you just simply show people the error of their misinterpretation I guess it becomes the business of the one's who weren't factually refuted to pick up the slack.

Must be droves of such people. Nevertheless I would like to explain the Hadith where Mohammed (saw) states he has been given orders to fight the people....

It's a page or 2 back if you want to read it. Someone thought it was discussing conversion, rather forced conversion, neither of which it was.

According to ibn Tamiyah

"It (people) refers to those waging war against the Muslims, not to those with whom we have a covenant, which Allah demands we fulfill." Mamju al-Fatawa 19/20

These specific people were pagan Arabs so even they were never forcefully converted. Did they persecute the Muslims, break treaties (covenants) treacherously?

They did. And they were defeated soundly for it.

Mamju al-Fatawa is a book written by Tamiyah.

Everybody cheer up, Islam loves you, Allah loves you.

And it doesn't matter how hard you try, what "jihad" slandering links you provide, how many times you claim without proof that Islam is responsible for terrorism, it was, is and will be b.s.

You will be one more sheep who can't think for their self until you realize that what is claimed by conspiracy nuts, not about real conspiracies, but whacky Sharia based, Jihad misrepresenting conspiracy theories that you insult your own intelligence (even without knowing it) and make yourself look like a gullible fool by believing and then citing as fact, thinking you have accomplished something.

All you do is prove you are gullible and believe whatever you are told by a government that lies about wmd's in Iraq and blows up their own buildings, and their allies who are waging war on you too.

 

[Aberamentho]

The verse 3:199 was quoted in several posts including # 271. However, rather than explaining what it says we got a lecture on the difference between the Quran and the OT from you. Try to answer the question and not assume that you know what the other person is thinking.

Also please explain what is 28:48-50 talking about:


But when there came unto them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Why is he not given the like of what was given unto Moses? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given unto Moses of old? They say: Two magics that support each other; and they say: Lo! in both we are disbelievers


Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful. ...

It starts of at 28:43, recalling the Israelites at Sinai with Moses.

At 48 it is speaking from the mouth of one who hypothetically follows Torah and is asking why Mohammed (saw) hasn't been given what Moses was given (power to perform miracles).

Did the people not reject, before this, that which was given to Moses?

Is the reply to the question.

They say, "They (Moses and Mohammed) are both frauds who support each other' they also say, 'We reject the claim of each".

Refers to unvelievers in the Prophets Moses (pbwh) and Mohammed (saw).

3:199 Simply is saying among other religions "People of the Scripture" are loyal to Allah and will be rewarded.

I hope that helps. I don't apologize for calling someone who accused a Muslim of being an IS collaborator an idiot. I forgive you though. And hope for a new start, otherwise I have seen you as a very reasonable person who just said something incredibly stupid, I will not hold it against you.

And hope this helps. These actually are really easy to understand verses if read in context with knowledge of the generation it was recited in.

 

[J2hapydna]

....
They say, "They (Moses and Mohammed) are both frauds who support each other' they also say, 'We reject the claim of each.

....
I hope that helps. I don't apologize for calling someone who accused a Muslim of being an IS collaborator an idiot. I forgive you though.

And hope this helps. These actually are really easy to understand verses if read in context with knowledge of the generation it was recited in.

Apparently, you also don't read or understand Arabic very well in addition to English. The word here is magic soreceries not magician sorcerers - there is a huge difference. Also the subsequent verses make it clear that they are books. So have another go at explaining what the Quran is saying. At least look at the translation in English if you don't understand Arabic

 

[Aberamentho]

I know I have said it already but it deserves to be repeated.

9/11 caused Islamaphobia, this is undeniable by any intelligent person.

Yet it has been proven that the twin towers were demolished as was the unhit-by-plane tower 7, for reasons never explained. Because the only explanation is "we blew it up."

It's proven by photos that no plane hit the Pentagon or crashed in Pennsylvania. Unless planes sometimes vaporize upon crashing, but they don't.

And it's been admitted, made a movie about even, that the Bush administration knew that no such wmd's ever existed in Iraq. Not by the administration, just by everybody else in the informed world.

A false flag attack on America blamed on bin Laden, a phony war to prevent Saddam from using weapons we knew he never had, and a bogus war in Afghanistan based on a fake attack. Well the attack was real, the "whodunnit" is what is false.

Afghanistan is capable of growing opium, it's not a coincidence that heroin use has hit epidemic levels ever since the invasion of Afghanistan.

Iraq has one of the largest reserves of fossil fuels in the world.

These are the reasons for the respective wars, not terrorism. That's the EXCUSE, like wmd's it is another lie.

Yet still America is in love with hating Islam?

Of course not. Just internet cowards are. Where I live everybody knows this stuff, you are the people we ridicule, me and my non-Muslim friends.

Who are not cowards like you internet cowards who are too lazy to learn the truth and must really love having someone they can talk, like the biggots they are, about hating and not get called a racist.

Because it's a religion not a race.

Same hate, different group of people. It's the religious equivalent of racism and no better than thinking all African Americans are gang bangers or rappers or all Mexicans MS-13.

Stupid.

 

[Aberamentho]

Apparently, you also don't read or understand Arabic very well in addition to English. The word here is magic soreceries not magician sorcerers - there is a huge difference. Also the subsequent verses make it clear that they are books. So have another go at explaining what the Quran is saying. At least look at the translation in English if you don't understand Arabic

Sorcerer? Who said sorcerer?

Not me.

I don't speak any Arabic but I still properly explained the verse you asked me too, you are upset enough about that to try insulting me over a word I never even used?

How weird.

I didn't improperly explain it to you. That is the meaning.

Do with it what you will angry one.

 

[Aberamentho]

Apparently, you also don't read or understand Arabic very well in addition to English. The word here is magic soreceries not magician sorcerers -

The two verses I explained as requested by you don't discuss sorcery. I said that Mohammed (saw) was asked why he doesn't perform MIRACLES, and put in parentheses so you knew it was me explaining to you what was meant.

I should have used [ ] because the Qur'an uses parentheses to explain difficult to translate meanings word for word.

But that hardly warrants this b.s. reply. Have a long life.

there is a huge difference. Also the subsequent verses make it clear that they are books. So have another go at explaining what the Quran is saying. At least look at the translation in English if you don't understand Arabic

Apparently you don't think before opening your mouth often, because I never used the word sorcery and those verses don't either.

 

[Aberamentho]

28:48

But now that the truth has come to them from Us they say, "Why has he not been given the like of that which was given to Moses?" Did the people not reject before this that which was given to Moses?" They say, we reject each of them."

Magic sorcerers, Magician sorcerers, if there was even a difference is pretty irrelevant to a Qur'an verse that doesn't discuss it/either.

As was your anger, which lead you to lie about my English language skills based on a word I never used and doesn't occur in that verse. Magic sorcerers or magician sorcerers, I said neither because neither are in that verse. You can replace "frauds" with "sorcerers" but it is talking about fake sorcerery so uses "frauds" in some translations.

Magic or magician is NOT in any version I have seen of that verse.

Weird.

 

[Aberamentho]

Now the other version I have replaces "frauds" with "sorcery" as sorcery is a form of fraud this is perfectly acceptable. See Simon Magus aka Simon the Sorcerer.

Funny thing is the Magians, Zoroastrians, never practiced sorcery but it is still the Greek word Magi's source, original meaning, "Wise Men."

It was used as an umbrella term by Greeks for Chaldeans, Zoroastrians and Brahmins.

But it is entirely absurd to suggest that I have a language issue regarding sorcery, since I never used the word in the first place and my exegesis was proper. It's not a complicated verse.


I would love to hear the difference between a Magic sorcerer and a magician sorcerer though.

As inapplicable to anything I said it may be it sounds fascinating!!!

 

[Aberamentho]

Aberamentho

What you believe and what we know are two different thing's.

Firstly, My friends 5 cousins all captains in the USA fire department attended the blazes that day.
The youngest was in one of the towers when it collapsed.
I watched the second plane hit the towers live on tv.
We saw footage of live coverage and also calls from planes one brought down before hitting target,

How can anyone refuse to accept that terrorism was responsible?

I am not going to be drawn into a debate about you wanting to excuse terrorist fighting in the name of Islam from being responsible.

So let us make a quick statement for you to think about.

Whatever you believe about the 9/11 the fact that muslims in Islamic countries kill their own people in the street for sinning
shows how barbaric the reality of such a religion really is. Under that evidence I see no reason to doubt who was truly
responsible for the 9/11, The fact someone claiming to be from a 'peaceful religion' can try and excuse such actions
and remove blame elsewhere is actually dumbfounding by all sense of reason.

In 2010 there were 2.8 billion Christians not counting any other religion like the Jews who believe in YHWH.
But the number does not interest me. Because clearly YHWH is the only God to have actually done anything as far as gods go.
So he can still claim to be the only God. Whilst he is charge you haven't a chance of your beliefs being fulfilled.
Thank God.


Your terrorist, Islams terrorist still use the verses I quoted to action their killings.
Whatever verses you bring does not stop that being true. I am not interested in helping you try and excuse yourself or your religion for the part in plays (however small or large)
in the actions of terrorist.

To the honour of the true God , YHWH and all those people who have been hurt and murdered in the name of your religion, I will not give you a platform to dishonour their memories
or the greatest gift they gave for others to defend and help them... their lives.

Because:

1. Tower 7 was never hit by a plane, neither was the Pentagon or that field in Pennsylvania. Yet tower 7 inexplicably (using valid science anyway) "collapsed"(was demolished).

2. Plane crashes were accounted for in the construction of the twin towers. Regardless of that it is scientific a fact that the planes did not cause the collapse.

There wasn't enough heat to melt steel to make it collapse and both were controlled demolitions.


Apparently you either work for the government or live in a cave.

It WAS terrorism, just not by Muslims.

If you have yet to learn about this I question your intelligence and everything you say is unreliable because you are either gullible or a biggot who is refusing to let go of an excuse to hate someone even if it means remaining (deliberately) ignorant of what really happened.

From your misinterpretation of Quranic verses used to support your theories/agenda, my money is not on gullible.

Seriously though what kind of fool are you, and do you think you are fooling anyone who isn't as big a fool as you with your hate-speech?

Futile, fools are becoming a majority anyway.

 

[Aberamentho]

In your dreams... YHWH is not allah. YHWH not the god of islam he is the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob. He had a covenant with them but none with Mahomet or even Ishmael.

Actually:

El, Ilah, are Hebrew and Arabic words meaning deity/god.

Elohim is the proper name of the Hebrew God. From Eloha/Alah (a=e in Hebrew, drop the vowel as originally none were used and you get Alah).

In Arabic it is Al-Ilah or Allah, The God.

All are derived from the Ugaritic "Illu."

So yeah, only in your dreams are they NOT the same God. Abrahamic religions all worship the God of Abraham. You must be some powerful dude if you can decide who God is and isn't without knowing all (or any) of the facts.

And force people to not worship Him with the power of wishful thinking

Islam has the same Prophets, God and shares some stories with Judaism and Christianity both, minus Paul.

And you are just wishing it wasn't true out of bias or biggotry. Any religious scholar or theologian from the 3 religions who isn't a lying extremist will tell you the same thing.

Making you look kind of ridiculous.

You just said a fact wasn't a fact, and your reason is that is what you wish were true.

But Abrahamic means what it means, and the 3 religions acknowledge they share the same God, even if they don't agree on other things.

You have no power to change that unless you choose to be a fanatic, even then it's still a delusion.

 

[J2hapydna]

Sorcerer? Who said sorcerer?

Not me.

I don't speak any Arabic but I still properly explained the verse you asked me too, you are upset enough about that to try insulting me over a word I never even used?

How weird.

I didn't improperly explain it to you. That is the meaning.

Do with it what you will angry one.

In Arabic there are two separate words to describe magic and magician. 28:48 is talking about magic not magicians. So you are right there is no mention of magicians or sorcerers in this verse. However, then you turn around and suggest the verse is about Muhammad and Moses. If that were the case they would have been accused of being magicians / sorcerers not magic (tricks) or sorceries. In addition the next verse makes it obvious the sorcereries are the two books

In the past some scholars confused the word magic / sorcery with magician / sorcerer in the Quran to suggest this verse was about Moses and Muhammad or Aaron etc. The verse is about things (sorceries) not people sorcerers. These sorceries are books that are described in the next verse. Modern translations take this into account:


Mohsin Khan: But when the truth (i.e. Muhammad SAW with his Message) has come to them from Us, they say: "Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa (Moses)? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Musa (Moses) of old? They say: "Two kinds of magic [the Taurat (Torah) and the Quran] each helping the other!" And they say: "Verily! In both we are disbelievers."

Arberry: Yet when the truth came to them 'from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like' of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'

Yusuf Ali: But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

Sahih International: But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

So now that this is clear what is the verse describing? Show me what the old scholars have said

 

[Aberamentho]

In your dreams... YHWH is not allah. YHWH not the god of islam he is the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob. He had a covenant with them but none with Mahomet or even Ishmael.

Actually, Ishmael was a member of the Covenant. He was circumcised (sign of the Covenant) and blessed in Genesis by God. Also had 12 sons, princes.

Ishmael had Hebrew blood also.

I have already explained that your opinion is not based on fact or anything but your personal dislike of Islam.

I am curious, does denying reality give you any satisfaction? Or did you just legitimately not know the facts?

Now that you do are you going to deny them to support your opinion or adjust your opinion to align with the facts?

Because Ishmael wasn't given the Covenant in the way Isaac was, he was still inducted into it along with the descendants of Isaac, and is as deserving as any of them are to be a part of it, as the eldest son of Abraham.

Just because Arabs aren't Israelites, like gentile Christians aren't even Semitic or Hebrew or Israelite, unless they are Messianic Jews or otherwise Semitic Christians, doesn't mean he wasn't circumcised into the Covenant. He definitely was, so you aren't a Bible scholar, that's obvious.

On that note what gives you the right to decide for Muslims the identity of their God, the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus (pbwt) and Mohammed (saw)?

Besides free-speech you don't have the right, you can say it, you can not make it true. So why would you bother?

Are you that powerless you need to imagine that we don't worship the God of Abraham to FEEL powerful?

What would make a person who doesn't even know Ishmael was circumcised think they are educated enough to declare as fact, that which is actually fiction and the opinion of only extremist Christians usually?

Because the God of Abraham is the God of Abraham, in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

That is a legitimate fact. Does delusional thinking help you ever?

 

[Aberamentho]

In Arabic there are two separate words to describe magic and magician. 28:48 is talking about magic not magicians. So you are right there is no mention of magicians or sorcerers in this verse. However, then you turn around and suggest the verse is about Muhammad and Moses. If that were the case they would have been accused of being magicians / sorcerers not magic (tricks) or sorceries. In addition the next verse makes it obvious the sorcereries are the two books

In the past some scholars confused the word magic / sorcery with magician / sorcerer in the Quran to suggest this verse was about Moses and Muhammad or Aaron etc. The verse is about things (sorceries) not people sorcerers. These sorceries are books that are described in the next verse. Modern translations take this into account:


Mohsin Khan: But when the truth (i.e. Muhammad SAW with his Message) has come to them from Us, they say: "Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa (Moses)? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Musa (Moses) of old? They say: "Two kinds of magic [the Taurat (Torah) and the Quran] each helping the other!" And they say: "Verily! In both we are disbelievers."

Arberry: Yet when the truth came to them 'from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like' of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'

Yusuf Ali: But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

Sahih International: But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

So now that this is clear what is the verse describing? Show me what the old scholars have said

You realize that I just did what you asked and explained the verse, right?

Don't make your mistakes my problem, I didn't make any in that explanation and don't care about the linguistic nuances of the Arabic word for sorcery, you do because you messed up and accused me of misusing a word I never used.

I wasn't serious about being interested in the difference between magic sorcerer and magician sorcerer and am not interested in you.

Not my problem, don't bother me with your nonsense. Actually do whatever you want, I am putting you on ignore.

 

[J2hapydna]

28:48

But now that the truth has come to them from Us they say, "Why has he not been given the like of that which was given to Moses?" Did the people not reject before this that which was given to Moses?" They say, we reject each of them."

Where did you get this translation?

Magic sorcerers, Magician sorcerers, if there was even a difference is pretty irrelevant to a Qur'an verse that doesn't discuss it/either.

LOL. Which universe are you in? I've quoted multiple translations in which the word is translated to magic and sorcery.

You can replace "frauds" with "sorcerers" but it is talking about fake sorcerery so uses "frauds" in some translations.

Magic or magician is NOT in any version I have seen of that verse.

You absolutely are clueless of Arabic.

Which translation doesn't have the word magic/ sorcery? I've given you several

How is it talking about fake sorcery? You demonstrate a complete lack of simple English reading comprehension.