"Religion of Peace?"

[J2hapydna]

IF, just IF islam could reform itself, give up it's political and domineering characteristics as Dr. Jasser and his Muslim organization envisions, there would be no problem living peacefully and with respect with the rest of us who live that way, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's, Sikh,s, Taoists, B'hai, you name it.

It isn't Islam that needs reforming it is Orthodox Shariaism that needs reforming. if Islam needed reforming and you believed Jasser was following Islam then he would need reforming too according to you.

Once again, the way you are phrasing your statements makes one think you have worked in the US government promoting the Mujahideen as the real Muslims for too long and now having a hard d time switching loyalties

What do you think about Jasser when he says:

The old allies in the Middle East – Saudi Arabia, etc. – they might be with us in this whack-a-mole program, but they’re both the firefighters and the arsonists. We need to make clear that our principles in America, our religious freedom, are not embodied in those countries that are the cauldrons of radical Islam,” -Dr Jasser

 

[hughwatt]

The west has been interfering in the Middle east for five decades, drone strikes that routinely kill civilians is America's latest contribution to perpetuating a cycle of hatred and violence for years to come.

The problem is you seem to be equating Muslims to Jihadists. You really think that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist? What is the point of calling Islam a religion of war? Would you like peace? Do you think that bashing Muslims/Islam is going to result in a peaceful response from anyone?

Is it the fault of the West Islam IS fighting against itself in the ME, as it was in the 7th century? How'd you think that started?

EVERY Muslim IS a potential terrorist for EVERY Muslim IS obligated to obey Allah and his prophet. You may not like nor want to believe what you read but Islam does not seek to live in peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims.

 

[hughwatt]

I've tried wrapping my head around the Koran but it's difficult since it isn't ordered chronologically but by the length of the chapters. There are verses saying to kill non-believers but there are also verses saying to honor agreements with non-believers. There are versus that clearly state that Allah hates aggressors, that includes Muslims. There are verses that clearly state that Christians and Jews living among Muslims should not be mistreated as long as they live by the rules and pay a tax. I think that picking a few verses out of a large book without fully understanding the context is irresponsible. There is a lot of nasty stuff in the bible. How would you feel if someone said that ALL Christians are misogynists because of verses relating to women in the bible? Would you agree with that?

Divide the Koran into two sections. The earlier "peaceful" verses are the ones revealed to Muhammad when he was in Mecca and had a small army. When he became militarily strong and migrated to Medina he stopped being softly softly to those who refused to accept his god and his prophethood. Then the real Muhammad and his god showed their other side. Then Muhammad started inflicting violence upon those he could not bring into Islam by peaceful persuasion. Then Muhammad's anger exploded and as we see today the kafir are to be given three options:

1/ Convert to Islam.

2/ If you are a Jew or Christian pay the jizya in humiliation of your dhimmi status.

3/ Be put to the sword.

 

[Notanumber]

Is Pakistan a good example of the Religion of Peace in action?

 

[hughwatt]

There are around 1.5 billion Muslims on earth and the majority of them just want to live their lives like anybody else. Even if all Muslims admitted that there are violent verses in the Koran they are not going to leave Islam. Then what? Where are you headed with this?

The "1.5 billion Muslims" have a code of rule to follow; the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah. Not one Muslim has the right to pick-and-choose which parts to live by as this is not allowable under Islam. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for those Muslims who want to live in peace with non-Muslims. Trouble is, they are the ones being disobedient to Allah and their prophet. Muslims are told to kill and be killed for Allah. Frightening, I know, but I didn't write the books.

I think we pretty much know where it's headed. You just don't want to admit it.

 

[Notanumber]

What happens to Moderate Muslims if they try to stand up to the extremists?

Who is more likely to lose their lives in such situations?

 

[hughwatt]

What happens to Moderate Muslims if they try to stand up to the extremists?

Who is more likely to lose their lives in such situations?

Dar al-Islam clashes with Dar al-Harb. When two tribes go to war..

 

[J2hapydna]

Is it the fault of the West Islam IS fighting against itself in the ME, as it was in the 7th century? How'd you think that started?

EVERY Muslim IS a potential terrorist for EVERY Muslim IS obligated to obey Allah and his prophet. You may not like nor want to believe what you read but Islam does not seek to live in peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims.

Just as every Christian doesn't obey the Justinian code or belong to the KKK every MUSLIM doesn't follow the Orthodox Sharia code or the ISIS code. Granted there are fewer KKK than Shariaists but some of that is due to us encouraging the war against the soviets in Afghanistan

 

[J2hapydna]

Divide the Koran into two sections. The earlier "peaceful" verses are the ones revealed to Muhammad when he was in Mecca and had a small army. When he became militarily strong and migrated to Medina he stopped being softly softly to those who refused to accept his god and his prophethood. Then the real Muhammad and his god showed their other side. Then Muhammad started inflicting violence upon those he could not bring into Islam by peaceful persuasion. Then Muhammad's anger exploded and as we see today the kafir are to be given three options:

1/ Convert to Islam.

2/ If you are a Jew or Christian pay the jizya in humiliation of your dhimmi status.

3/ Be put to the sword.

Wrong

Actually, during the second period the Arabs didn't attack the Axumite Empire or wage jihad on them. MP had explicitly forbidden waging jihad on them. It is only the parties that continued to practice extremism that were subjected to violence. So your analysis is faulty.

 

[hughwatt]

Just as every Christian doesn't obey the Justinian code or belong to the KKK every MUSLIM doesn't follow the Orthodox Sharia code or the ISIS code. Granted there are fewer KKK than Shariaists but some of that is due to us encouraging the war against the soviets in Afghanistan

You're like a person who dances around broken glass bare footed and blindfolded. Sooner or later you'll find out just how dangerous it really is.

Sharia law is not an option for Muslims.

 

[hughwatt]

Wrong

Actually, during the second period the Arabs didn't attack the Axumite Empire or wage jihad on them. MP had explicitly forbidden waging jihad on them. It is only the parties that continued to practice extremism that were subjected to violence. So your analysis is faulty.

Second period of what?

 

[J2hapydna]

You're like a person who dances around broken glass bare footed and blindfolded. Sooner or later you'll find out just how dangerous it really is.

Sharia law is not an option for Muslims.

I have a reputation of dancing this way from a long time before the west went to bed with the Mujahideen. I have side stepped more broken glass than you can imagine.

 

[hughwatt]

I have a reputation of dancing this way from a long time before the west went to bed with the Mujahideen. I have side stepped more broken glass than you can imagine.

Yes, you do have a knack of side stepping.

 

[J2hapydna]

="hughwatt, post: 5160674, member: 61981"]Second period of what?

Second period as in the time in which the second section of the Quran was revealed:

Divide the Koran into two sections. The earlier "peaceful" verses are the ones revealed to Muhammad when he was in Mecca and had a small army. When he became militarily strong and migrated to Medina he stopped being softly softly to those who refused to accept his god and his prophethood. Then the real Muhammad and his god showed their other side. Then Muhammad started inflicting violence upon those he could not bring into Islam by peaceful persuasion. Then Muhammad's anger exploded and as we see today the kafir are to be given three options:

1/ Convert to Islam.

2/ If you are a Jew or Christian pay the jizya in humiliation of your dhimmi status.

3/ Be put to the sword.

 

[hughwatt]

Wrong

Actually, during the second period the Arabs didn't attack the Axumite Empire or wage jihad on them. MP had explicitly forbidden waging jihad on them. It is only the parties that continued to practice extremism that were subjected to violence. So your analysis is faulty.

"Aksum remained a strong, though weakened, empire and trading power until the rise of Islam in the 7th century. However, unlike the relations between the Islamic powers and Christian Europe, Aksum (see Sahama), which provided shelter to Muhammad's early followers around 615, was on good terms with its Islamic neighbors.[20][21] Nevertheless, as early as 640, Umar ibn al-Khattāb sent a naval expedition against Adulis under Alkama bin Mujazziz, but it was eventually defeated.." Wiki

 

[J2hapydna]

Yes, you do have a knack of side stepping.

Yep it is tuff with so much broken glass on one side and hypocrites who pay those who break the glass and laugh at those who dance

 

[J2hapydna]

"Aksum remained a strong, though weakened, empire and trading power until the rise of Islam in the 7th century. However, unlike the relations between the Islamic powers and Christian Europe, Aksum (see Sahama), which provided shelter to Muhammad's early followers around 615, was on good terms with its Islamic neighbors.[20][21] Nevertheless, as early as 640, Umar ibn al-Khattāb sent a naval expedition against Adulis under Alkama bin Mujazziz, but it was eventually defeated.." Wiki

It was retaliation for an attack on port Shuayba by an Ethiopian fleet as well as other attacks. However, there never was a full scale Jihad invasion of the Axumite empire, even after the conquest of Egypt, Jordan, Israel, modern day Iraq and Iran and after the Arabs controlled the seas. Although the surrounding territories were occupied, the reason was always given as the wishes of the prophet. The Umayyads tried to override this objection but Muslims would refuse to obey them

Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century

 

[shmogie]

It isn't Islam that needs reforming it is Orthodox Shariaism that needs reforming. if Islam needed reforming and you believed Jasser was following Islam then he would need reforming too according to you.

Once again, the way you are phrasing your statements makes one think you have worked in the US government promoting the Mujahideen as the real Muslims for too long and now having a hard d time switching loyalties

What do you think about Jasser when he says:

The old allies in the Middle East – Saudi Arabia, etc. – they might be with us in this whack-a-mole program, but they’re both the firefighters and the arsonists. We need to make clear that our principles in America, our religious freedom, are not embodied in those countries that are the cauldrons of radical Islam,” -Dr Jasser

No, I have never worked for he Government. No, I have never promoted the mujahideen, although, since I hated the USSR, and don't care much more for Russia, I wished them well when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, in this case it was the enemy of my enemy is my friend, of course that changed too. I agree totally with Jasser's statement. My concern about reform is based upon what I read in the holy books, and history, I most assuredly am not anything even remotely close to being an islamic scholar. It appears to me, and of course I could be wrong,that until the apparently violent sura's seemingly promoting prosecution of others can be seen in a different light than abjectly literal by the believers, as some of the early reformers envisioned, symbolically, a huge potential problem exists. Further, the ideal Muslim system of a theocratic government must be abandoned where the faith exists in Countries where democracy and separation of church and state exists, regardless of what the koran might say. Speaking as an American, I think there is enough blame to go around for both sides. I cannot tell you how enraged some Americans get, who only see islam as a monolithic religion, when this small group makes what appear to be asinine demands. Suing a diner because the smell of cooking bacon offends them, Demanding that free food given to them as a form of welfare meet halal requirements ( a system most Americans consider extremely cruel), and on it goes. People set attitudes by these things, and most don't feel the need to become immersed in islam, they see what they see. The groups that claim to support Muslims in the US e.g. CAIR, instead of mounting a strong public relations campaign of clarification, continually reinforces this image of complaining, making demands never seen before, and generally seeming to be total malcontents. Perhaps it is the islamic brotherhood influence. Anyway, if there is a reform movement, and Muslims desiring to be part of America and not a seeming hostile entity within it, average Americans need to know about it

It isn't Islam that needs reforming it is Orthodox Shariaism that needs reforming. if Islam needed reforming and you believed Jasser was following Islam then he would need reforming too according to you.

Once again, the way you are phrasing your statements makes one think you have worked in the US government promoting the Mujahideen as the real Muslims for too long and now having a hard d time switching loyalties

What do you think about Jasser when he says:

The old allies in the Middle East – Saudi Arabia, etc. – they might be with us in this whack-a-mole program, but they’re both the firefighters and the arsonists. We need to make clear that our principles in America, our religious freedom, are not embodied in those countries that are the cauldrons of radical Islam,” -Dr Jasser

 

[hughwatt]

It was retaliation for an attack on port Shuayba by an Ethiopian fleet as well as other attacks. However, there never was a full scale Jihad invasion of the Axumite empire, even after the conquest of Egypt, Jordan, Israel, modern day Iraq and Iran and after the Arabs controlled the seas. Although the surrounding territories were occupied, the reason was always given as the wishes of the prophet. The Umayyads tried to override this objection but Muslims would refuse to obey them

Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century

Being and Perceiving

 

[Notanumber]

Dar al-Islam clashes with Dar al-Harb. When two tribes go to war..

Thanks, but it was more about this video that got me wondering about what proportion of the crowd were Moderate Muslims and what would have happened to them if they had tried to stand up to the extremists.

pic.twitter.com/KiPmS1SgHJ

Yeah, religion of peace.............just watch and listen the video.

Would they have been publically executed as well?

Those men in uniforms just stood and watched instead of taking the “criminal” into protective custody.

It seems to me that Moderate Muslims should be just as concerned about the spread of Islam as the rest of us.