Religion the downfall of mankind...

[Caladan]

Darwin was outstanding. No doubt. That's not the point.

Scientists like Darwin are fighting today to rid our societies from superstitons, I think it is mighty telling that the vast majority of scientists in the developed world and outside it are atheists, usually very strong atheists. these are the people who move us forward, I think we better listen to what they have to say and get wiser, the priests might preach, but the scientists are boldly searching for the hard facts.

 

[sandandfoam]

Scientists like Darwin are fighting today to rid our societies from superstitons, I think it is mighty telling that the vast majority of scientists in the developed world and outside it are atheists, usually very strong atheists. these are the people who move us forward, I think we better listen to what they have to say and get wiser, the priests might preach, but the scientists are boldly searching for the hard facts.

Science and religion examine different questions. Some eminent scientists are religious, some are not. That's arguing the man not the ball. So what if they are(n't)?

 

[Storm]

If the kid is not old enough to comprehend religion then indoctrination is brainwashing, and I know this from experience.

No, it isn't. From the Wiki:

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
​

Indoctrination, especially when accompanied by threats of damnation, may be unsavory, but it isn't brainwashing.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think we better listen to what they have to say and get wiser, the priests might preach, but the scientists are boldly searching for the hard facts.

Kuhn would disagree with this. Is he wrong?

 

[Caladan]

Science and religion examine different questions. Some eminent scientists are religious, some are not.

Not really, the vast majority of western scientists are very strong atheists.

 

[Twig pentagram]

No, it isn't. From the Wiki:

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
​

Indoctrination, especially when accompanied by threats of damnation, may be unsavory, but it isn't brainwashing.

I don't care what the Wiki say. I'm divine, which means I define myself, and I think it's brainwashing to indoctrinate a kid who cannot unnderstand doctrine. If you teach the children how to comprehend and think for themselves then teach them about the religions of the world then it becomes indoctrination, and not brainwashing.

 

[Breathe]

but people STILL blindly follow and worship GOD.

Bad start..

How's come they don't teach our kids who attend Sunday School about the "Inquisition?" Hmm?

Speak for yourself.

"Thou shall not steal"...so if i steal a .2 cent piece of gum and don't ask for forgiveness I will burn in hell for all of eternity?

I don't believe in an eternal hell.

So if GOD is ALL KNOWING and he is incarnate in Jesus Christ wouldn't he have already known the Romans were going to crucify him? So whats the point?

1. Christianity is not the only religion in the world
2. Self-sacrifice in order to get people to come closer to God due to Him spilling His Blood in order to make humans able to access him again - if you believe in that. I don't.

If there is ONE omnipotent GOD why all the different religions?

All roads lead to Rome.
Others may say "Humans struggle to comprehend God". Others still "The lies of Satan!!!".

How's come if I tell someone I saw ANGELS there is no problem with that and they would believe but if I told the same person I saw an ALIEN they would laugh hysterically and call me delusional when there is 1000% times more proof of the latter?

It depends who you ask - not everyone is going to LOLOLOLOL at you for saying "I saw an alien", although people don't need to believe you if you have no proof, do they?

Hell, I can say I've been given a message by aliens. Does it mean it's true? Of course not.

They cant expect us to believe that angels and GOD live in the clouds, right?

Raelianism.

But, no. You will be VERY hard pressed to find someone in the Western world who believes God lives in the sky, even within Christianity. In olden times, the sky was something inaccessible.

Regarding this, since you're so interested in Christianity, here's an interesting verse from the Gospel of Thomas;

Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

I have many many more questions in the future.

Are you going to ask some that are, well, less juvenile? No offence meant, but what kind of impoverished understanding of religion must you need in order to think that is what all theists believe?

Here's a quick bit of information:

Not all theists are Christians
Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists
Not all Christians reject evolution
Not all theists reject evolution
Not all theists are literalists
Not all theists believe in eternal Hell, or even any Hell
Not all theists believe atheists are evil
Not all theists believe in Satan
Not all theists believe in demons, possession, miracles, or speaking in tongues
Not all theists believe their holy book is infallible

I hope this helps.

I know most answers to my question will be, "You just have to have Faith!"

Most of the answers you've been given are , I'm afraid. Perhaps if you'd joined a less liberal forum, you may have gotten answers you wish for, although I still doubt it.

Don't make your children go to church...if they want to go once they get old enough to think for themselves then o.k. but PLEASE don't brainwash innocent children. Let them decide on their own. :run:

I get what you are saying, but not every theist brainwashes their children. That is a huge generalisation.

I took my son to mandir (Hindu temple) yesterday. Does that mean I'm indoctrinating him? I also visit gurdwaras (Sikh temples) and took my daughter to one last week, and I also occasionally (but rarely) visit churches with my children.

Am I brainwashing them? No, I am not. To say otherwise, when you know nothing about me, is pretty ignorant.

 

[Storm]

I don't care what the Wiki say.

Of course you don't. Can't let those pesky facts get in the way of your bashing.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Of course you don't. Can't let those pesky facts get in the way of your bashing.

First off the wiki is full of things that are not true that's why in some schools you can't even use it as a reference. That's a fact.

 

[sandandfoam]

Not really, the vast majority of western scientists are very strong atheists.

Dan you started out telling homophobia and punishment/reward were intrinsic to my religion and that I was undereducated about my beliefs.
I quoted from a retired Bishop and demonstrated the opposite.
You brought Darwin (whom I admire into it) . You incorrectly suggested that without Darwin we wouldn't have concepts of evolution.
Now you're saying that scientists being atheists is relevant to religion somehow.

This is an example of when atheism seems to me no different to any other belief.

 

[Storm]

First off the wiki is full of things that are not true that's why in some schools you can't even use it as a reference. That's a fact.

Maybe, but it's also a lame excuse for having no rebuttal.

 

[sandandfoam]

Not really, the vast majority of western scientists are very strong atheists.

John Polkinghorne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An example of a freak I suppose?

 

[Twig pentagram]

Of course you don't. Can't let those pesky facts get in the way of your bashing.

Brain-washing; 1- a forcible attempt by indoctrination to induce someone to give up his basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas. 2- persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship.
Merriam-Webster.

 

[Caladan]

John Polkinghorne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An example of a freak I suppose?

Quite so.

A study has shown atheism in the west to be particularly prevalent among scientists, a tendency already quite marked at the beginning of the 20th century, developing into a dominant one during the course of the century. In 1914, James H. Leuba found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected U.S. natural scientists expressed "disbelief or doubt in the existence of God" (defined as a personal God which interacts directly with human beings). The same study, repeated in 1996, gave a similar percentage of 60.7%; this number is 93% among the members of the National Academy of Sciences. Expressions of positive disbelief rose from 52% to 72%.[10] (See also Relationship between religion and science.)

Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Storm]

Brain-washing; 1- a forcible attempt by indoctrination to induce someone to give up his basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.

Did you even READ that? It says a FORCIBLE attempt USING indoctrination.

2- persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship.
Merriman-Webster.

Congratulations, you found one definition that might be used to refer to regular indoctrination. How many did you have to go through?

First result from dictionary.com:
1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.

2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.

3. an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

Here's another:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

And another:
a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

Even the Cultural Dictionary doesn't back you up:
Cultural Dictionary
brainwashing definition


Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs. Usually associated with military and political interrogation and religious conversion, brainwashing attempts, through prolonged stress, to break down an individual's physical and mental defenses. Brainwashing techniques range from vocal persuasion and threats to punishment, physical deprivation, mind-altering drugs, and severe physical torture.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Did you even READ that? It says a FORCIBLE attempt USING indoctrination.


Congratulations, you found one definition that might be used to refer to regular indoctrination. How many did you have to go through?

First result from dictionary.com:
1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.

2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.

3. an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

Here's another:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

And another:
a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

Even the Cultural Dictionary doesn't back you up:
Cultural Dictionary
brainwashing definition


Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs. Usually associated with military and political interrogation and religious conversion, brainwashing attempts, through prolonged stress, to break down an individual's physical and mental defenses. Brainwashing techniques range from vocal persuasion and threats to punishment, physical deprivation, mind-altering drugs, and severe physical torture.

Believe it or not those definitions was the first and only ones I looked at. I copied them word for word they are exactly as you would see them in the Merriam-Webster dictionary I have, but it's not about what a dictionary says. My experiences define reality better than any dictionary can.

 

[Peacewise]

Ok some people had the inquisition and used religion as the system to justify that action.
The claim is then that religion is to be abandoned, or perhaps just not taught in schools.

Some people created the atomic bomb using the system of physics, shall we abandon physics?
Some people created anthrax using the system of biochemistry, shall we abandon biochemistry?
And so on. yadda yadda yadda, more pathetic vitriol from another non believer, great job on your 1st or 2nd post on a religious education forum, you've revealed that you need some frigging awesome education. I suggest you lurk for 6 months.

Silence is the beginning of wisdom.
Fools despise wisdom.
"Whenever I interact with someone,
May I view myself as the lowest amongst all,
And, from the very depths of my heart,
Respectfully hold others as superior." - and dear Christ some make this hard.

 

[Erebus]

Believe it or not those definitions was the first and only ones I looked at. I copied them word for word they are exactly as you would see them in the Merriam-Webster dictionary I have, but it's not about what a dictionary says. My experiences define reality better than any dictionary can.

I'm sorry Twig Pentagram, but Storm is right on this one. Indoctrination of children may be abominable but 99 times out of 100 it's a far cry from brainwashing. Brainwashing really is in a league of it's own.

 

[Quagmire]

LOL! I think MaddMike came here under the impression that we were all born-again Christians and Bible literalists and that he was going to set us straight.

 

[Caladan]

Im with you Twig

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such it is used pejoratively, often in the context of political opinions, theology or religious dogma. Instruction in the basic principles of science, in particular, can not properly be called indoctrination

Several Iranian refugees me and my friends met in western nations for example have told us that they were indcotrinated to hate and kill us, if this is not brainwashing, then what is really?