Religion the downfall of mankind...

[Storm]

These people where Christians. they were killing and enslaving in the name of their church, and often in the name of the Christian savior, carrying the banner of the dead savior with them.

They were also white, but I don't hear you defending racism.

 

[Caladan]

They were also white, but I don't hear you defending racism.

What is the argument you are trying to make? so they were both 'white' and Christian, are you saying its a bad combination? maybe it is, since these people have been idolizing a Hebrew man from Galilee, and therefor they cannot make their faith fully functioning, after all this man and his followers were persecuted, and these 'white' Christians were the persecutors.

 

[Storm]

What is the argument you are trying to make? so they were both 'white' and Christian, are you saying its a bad combination? maybe it is, since these people have been idolizing a Hebrew man from Galilee, and therefor they cannot make their faith fully functioning, after all this man and his followers were persecuted, and these 'white' Christians were the persecutors.

My argument is that people are people. They'll do what they want and justify it with whatever they can, and it makes no more sense to blame the religion than the skin color.

But you're the one making the assertion that religion is to blame. Can you back it up, or not?

 

[sandandfoam]

The historical fact is that Christianity has been perhaps the most destructive force in human history, it has enslaved and exterminated people from meso america, to the Middle East, and even in the European continent, in short, the world over.

sigh.
And atheism murdered in the person of Stalin. An equally nonsensical notion.

 

[sandandfoam]

My argument is that people are people. They'll do what they want and justify it with whatever they can, and it makes no more sense to blame the religion than the skin color.

That's the point. Spot on.

 

[Caladan]

My argument is that people are people. They'll do what they want and justify it with whatever they can, and it makes no more sense to blame the religion than the skin color
But you're the one making the assertion that religion is to blame. Can you back it up, or not?

They justified greatly in the name of their religion, did they not? did they not uproot native beliefs and made people whorship a now 'white' Jesus? did they not go into the holy land in order to take back the holy Christian sites? and fight the infidels? they did.

 

[Storm]

They justified greatly in the name of their religion, did they not? did they not uproot native beliefs and made people whorship a now 'white' Jesus? did they not go into the holy land in order to take back the holy Christian sites? and fight the infidels? they did.

You don't need to list the wrongs done, I'm well aware of them. You DO need to show that they were done BECAUSE OF the religion, and not politics, xenophobia, or simple greed.

I've asked you at least three times to support your assertion. Making more assertions only gives you more work.

 

[Caladan]

You don't need to list the wrongs done, I'm well aware of them.

You might be aware of them but you have not taken the lessons from them to heart.

You DO need to show that they were done BECAUSE OF the religion, and not politics, xenophobia, or simple greed.

I already have. the mere fact that these people converted almost the entire world is the fact, and pretty much makes my case.

I've asked you at least three times to support your assertion. Making more assertions only gives you more work.

I have, you simply do not recognize them.

 

[Storm]

You might be aware of them but you have not taken the lessons from them to heart.
I already have. the mere fact that these people converted almost the entire world is the fact, and pretty much makes my case.


I have, you simply do not recognize them.

No, you haven't. You've listed things that happened. You haven't even attempted to show causation. As I've already said, and you're well aware, correlation does not equal causation.

Your lame excuse for an argument boils down to "religious people have done bad things!" Well, duh. The vast majority of people over the course of human history have been religious, and sometimes people do bad things. But that doesn't mean religion makes people do anything, good or bad.

If I were to blame atheism for the atrocities of Stalin and Mao, would you let me get away with it? So, why are you playing the same game?

 

[Caladan]

No, you haven't. You've listed things that happened. You haven't even attempted to show causation. As I've already said, and you're well aware, correlation does not equal causation.

Are you saying that the Church declaring that Christian armies are going to take the middle east in the name of their savior is not a causation?

Your lame excuse for an argument boils down to "religious people have done bad things!" Well, duh. The vast majority of people over the course of human history have been religious, and sometimes people do bad things. But that doesn't mean religion makes people do anything, good or bad.

You have just proved my case, 'these people have been religious', they acted by religious conviction.

If I were to blame atheism for the atrocities of Stalin and Mao, would you let me get away with it? So, why are you playing the same game?

of course not, because Stalin and Mao killed their own people in the name of communism.

 

[Storm]

Are you saying that the Church declaring that Christian armies are going to take the middle east in the name of their savior is not a causation?

No, I'm asking you to show that it was, rather than just talking out your ***. Tell me why you think cultural imperatives, political ambition, and simple greed had nothing to do with the Crusades.

You have just proved my case, 'these people have been religious', they acted by religious conviction.

Wow. I know damned well you're not this stupid, but I thought you were more honest.

of course not, because Stalin and Mao killed their own people in the name of communism.

Which promotes atheism. Therefore, by your logic, atheism murdered thousands of innocent people.

 

[Caladan]

No, I'm asking you to show that it was, rather than just talking out your ***. Tell me why you think cultural imperatives, political ambition, and simple greed had nothing to do with the Crusades.

Did the Crusaders not go under the decree of the pope? they did. the mere fact that you resort to pathetic childish remarks means that you have lost the debate, and you are simply refusing to come to terms with the fact, the European crusaders have carried the cross with them into the middle east in order to liberate the Christian sites. if this is not a motive and a cause, then you are in a complete denial.

Which promotes atheism. Therefore, by your logic, atheism murdered thousands of innocent people.

Which promotes totalitarianism, not atheism.

 

[Storm]

Did the Crusaders not go under the decree of the pope? they did. the mere fact that you resort to pathetic childish remarks means that you have lost the debate, and you are simply refusing to come to terms with the fact, the European crusaders have carried the cross with them into the middle east in order to liberate the Christian sites. if this is not a motive and a cause, then you are in a complete denial.

Whatever, Dan.

Let's recap:
1) You asserted that when people do bad things, it's the fault of their religion.
2) I asked you to support that assertion.
3) You refused, preferring to simply repeat yourself.
[repeat 2 and 3 ad nauseum]
4) You declare victory.

I never thought you of all people would resort to the same games as a YEC.

 

[Caladan]

Whatever, Dan.

Let's recap:
1) You asserted that when people do bad things, it's the fault of their religion.

No. I have asserted that when religious people do things in the name of their religion its the fault of their religion and their fault for being naive enough to follow the dogma.

2) I asked you to support that assertion.
3) You refused, preferring to simply repeat yourself.

My case has been made.

[repeat 2 and 3 ad nauseum]
4) You declare victory.

The moment you see you opponent resorting to childish remarks and personal insults you understand that the debate is over.

I never thought you of all people would resort to the same games as a YEC.

I never thought you were that naive.

 

[Storm]

Whatever, Dan. I'm frustrated that you've resorted to such pathetic tactics, and it showed. If you were even trying to use your formiddable intelligence isntead of your unexpected bigotry, you'd see that for what it was and either support or withdraw your statements.

Declare victory all you like, I'm done. I hope your delusions are worth losing my respect.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Whatever, Dan. I'm frustrated that you've resorted to such pathetic tactics, and it showed. If you were even trying to use your formiddable intelligence isntead of your unexpected bigotry, you'd see that for what it was and either support or withdraw your statements.

Declare victory all you like, I'm done. I hope your delusions are worth losing my respect.

You've lost respect for him because he refused to think like you? You are the one who insulted him. If anything he should lose respect for you.

 

[Storm]

You've lost respect for him because he refused to think like you? You are the one who insulted him. If anything he should lose respect for you.

Not that it's any of your business, but no. Because he resorted to tactics that are completely beneath him.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It is not religion that is a downfall to humanity. It is a dogmatic belief in an ideology, be it Christianity, Islam, Ethnicity, Nationalism, Zionism, etc, that leads people into irrational acts of inhumanity.

 

[McBell]

You've lost respect for him because he refused to think like you? You are the one who insulted him. If anything he should lose respect for you.

Have you even been reading the same thread?
Caladan has made some bald assertions yet refuses to support them with anything other than more bald assertions.

One can use his exact same argument and replace "religion" with "White skin" or even "red hair" and still have nothing more than the exact same unsubstantiated bald assertions.

 

[ChristineES]

Religion doesn't cause misery, people cause misery. They use things like religion, race, patriotism, etc. as an excuse.