Religion: *#@$&~^!!!!

[ChristineES]

Atheism and agnosticism are non-faiths by definition. And who said I'm only here to bash theists? Also, your implying that I'm a bigot. Why else would you have made that statement? Just felt like letting me know in case i didn't know what that phrase meant.

I already had said I wasn't calling you a bigot, and I implied no such thing. If you took it that way, that is your own doing. But I forgot to welcome you to the RF. :cover::cover:

 

[Wakeup]

I came here to state my opinions and receive feedback. Atheism is a belief just like any other. Religion should not be shielded from being scrutinized for the same reason math and science shouldn't. Again it baffles me that an individual could claim to eat the body of another human being every Sunday or claim becoming pregnant without conception is possible or the despicable act of circumsition commanded by God in the bible. Not a single person would bat an eye at you if you said that. While I simply state my opinions and its a outrage.

 

[Badran]

Oh yes, Welcome to RF Wakeup

 

[ChristineES]

I came here to state my opinions and receive feedback. Atheism is a belief just like any other. Religion should not be shielded from being scrutinized for the same reason math and science shouldn't. Again it baffles me that an individual could claim to eat the body of another human being every Sunday or claim becoming pregnant without conception is possible or the despicable act of circumsition commanded by God in the bible. Not a single person would bat an eye at you if you said that. While I simply state my opinions and its a outrage.

I think you would have had more success if you had said "I don't agree with what religion teaches" rather than "religion is vile". More people listen to civility more than hostility, you know. We theists don't mind scrutiny, but we do mind being told we follow a vile path. But then, I don't know everything or even close to everything.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I came here to state my opinions and receive feedback. Atheism is a belief just like any other. Religion should not be shielded from being scrutinized for the same reason math and science shouldn't. Again it baffles me that an individual could claim to eat the body of another human being every Sunday or claim becoming pregnant without conception is possible or the despicable act of circumsition commanded by God in the bible. Not a single person would bat an eye at you if you said that. While I simply state my opinions and its a outrage.

How about Vaishnavism or the Baha'i Faith?

 

[IslamTheTruth]

You are wrong

 

[ChristineES]

I sometimes wonder if we are all wrong. :biglaugh:

 

[Wakeup]

I think you would have had more success if you had said "I don't agree with what religion teaches" rather than "religion is vile". More people listen to civility more than hostility, you know. We theists don't mind scrutiny, but we do mind being told we follow a vile path. But then, I don't know everything or even close to everything.

That's not always true in every case, and I think in most cases its a loud voice that brings the revolution. You wouldn't get upset if i called the music you listened to vile, or the food you ate vile would you? I don't think most people would. Why should religion be any diffrent?

 

[Wakeup]

Oh yes, and thank you all for welcoming me

 

[ChristineES]

That's not always true in every case, and I think in most cases its a loud voice that brings the revolution. You wouldn't get upset if i called the music you listened to vile, or the food you ate vile would you? I don't think most people would. Why should religion be any diffrent?

Because I am not what food I eat and I am not what music I listen to.

 

[Gharib]

[It should be noted that I only refer to Christianity in this post because I am most familiar with it. However. this post was directed toward any thiest religion]

so either you studied all religions fully and came to that conclusion or you just found some info on christianity through google and concluded that all religions are alike.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

There's a line in the Wiccan Rede. It says, "Speak little, listen much."

I suggest you do the same. More reading, more listening. Less talking.

 

[Gharib]

There's a line in the Wiccan Rede. It says, "Speak little, listen much."

I suggest you do the same. More reading, more listening. Less talking.

lol, on friday the imam made a speech at the mosque, he said god has given us 2 ears and 1 tounge, so we should spend more time listening that talking.

 

[Levite]

First, it baffles me you say, "rather than teach children the religion of our choice," when so many religions assert absolute truth while there is a direct correlation with the religion you "choose" with the country you live in. It is rather absurd you can get past this premise to "choose" a religion. But lets be real here, the authority of most religions are so anxious in preserving the purity in their children, that they are intent on keeping them ignorant from other religions in the first place.

So, let me get this straight. Because I live in the United States, which has somewhere on the order of six thousand Christian denominations, that means there was somehow an effect on my choice to be Jewish? Ridiculous. And furthermore, I know plenty of people who began with some other religion, including non-Western religions, or with no religion at all, who chose to convert to Judaism. I know them because I helped them study for conversion, and in some cases, sat on their Bet Din (rabbinical court, to oversee proper conversion). Some of them came from countries with no Jews, some from places without much Western religion at all. Others were Americans or Canadians or Europeans. None of them really chose to be Jewish? That seems pretty hard to believe. Were they brainwashed? Or perhaps it's some sort of strange conspiracy?

In any case, I have also taught at many Jewish schools, and they all have a World Religions class or something similar, so the kids can learn about other religions; they read selections from the Christian Bible, the Quran, various Buddhist sutras, and suchlike. Numerous times I have guest-lectured at Christian schools (of several denominations) to teach their students about Judaism. One of my good friends in college was a Muslim, and he told me that his home mosque had relationships with nearby churches and synagogues to do interfaith dialogue and mutual education about each other's religions, which is where he learned about Judaism. He said he knew of many such programs among mosques. Were all those Jews and Christians and Muslims somehow exceptions to the authorities of their religion that wanted to keep them ignorant? They all seemed fairly tolerant as well. Did I miss something?

Furthermore, during my years of engagement in interfaith dialogue, I have run into quite a number of Christians who say that their understanding of their religion is that it does not have a monopoly on truth, and both they and their children are quite well-educated about other faiths. Many of these Christians have been ministers and pastors. Are they also "vile, depraved, and inhuman?" Or are they somehow an exception to the rule? What about the many hundreds of thousands of pluralistic and tolerant Jews and Muslims out there? Do they get a pass, or must they be lumped in with the overzealous fanatics and fundamentalists?

In one sense Christianity is wrong for moral reasons and it's impact on society, in another sense the absolute truth it asserts to the world isn't true.

Yes, so you have said. But it seems quite clear that you are universalizing one particular Christian viewpoint into a presumption that all theistic religions are absolute fundamentalists. But that is not even true of all Christians. Statistically speaking, the majority of Christians in the world (or even in the United States) do not describe themselves as fundamentalist, nor do they insist on exclusively literal readings of Scripture.

As for other religions, do you even know anything about Judaism? Or Islam? Both of those religions have a multitude of different interpretations, many of which are not fundamentalist, and are quite tolerant.

You seem to have an all-too-common Euro-American view that all religions are like Christianity, and most Christians are fundamentalists. But this is simply false.

I specificlly said "scociety's morality," not mine.

Ah. And who, precisely, determines what "society's morality" might be? Since the vast majority of people in the United States, statistically, are adherents of one sort of religion or another, doesn't it seem just a bit hypocritical to suggest that they ought to have no say whatsoever into what constitutes "society's morality?" "Society," I take it, in your view should be made up of the twelve or thirteen percent of Americans who are atheists and secular humanists, and nobody else? Yes, that seems quite likely to solve the problem of people's rights being infringed upon by others....

First of all I said theist, meaning a personal god that intervenes in a governing way on earth. I never said any individual was vile, depraved, and inhumane.

You know, many theists do not believe that God constantly intervenes on earth. You might wish to actually study some religion before you condemn it all for what you think it is. Just a suggestion.

And second of all, of course, you never said that any individual was vile, depraved, and inhumane. You merely said that the teachings they embrace, by which they try to live their lives, were vile, depraved and inhumane. Surely no one could infer anything about those people from the fact that they embrace those teachings that you condemn as vile, depraved, and inhumane. Good people so often embrace core philosophies that are vile, depraved, and inhumane. How could I make such an easy mistake?

Here's the thing. Intolerance is arrogant. It doesn't matter if it comes from religious fundamentalists who say that they have the only key to Truth and everyone else is going to hell in a handbasket, or from secularists and atheists who trumpet about how all religion or belief in God makes one into a zealous lunatic just waiting to go gay bashing or strap on a suicide bomb. It's all equally arrogant. Criticizing a specific religious interpretation may be deeply supportable. Criticizing a specific school of philosophical or theological thought may be quite correct. Criticizing fundamentalism is always worth while. But uniformly condemning all religions, or all belief in God, no matter what, is just ignorant and simplistic.

Religions are not monolithic: they are made up of individuals, and their traditions are made up of many extremely complex and highly interpretable texts. Some people are going to misuse, abuse, and pervert their religions in order to oppress others. Many more will not. Problems with fundamentalists are far more likely to be dealt with effectively by thoughtful alliance with progressive and flexible religious groups and leaders than by lumping everyone into one big group and just p****** off the non-fundamentalists who basically have the same issues with fundamentalism that you do. So if you really care about trying to effect some change, a little education would help you a lot, and a little humility would do even more.

 

[Wakeup]

There's a line in the Wiccan Rede. It says, "Speak little, listen much."

I suggest you do the same. More reading, more listening. Less talking.

The moment you as a human begin to die is the moment when you stop speaking about things that matter. I don't take prejudice very lightly. The Christian God specifically justifies murder as punishment for the act of homosexuality in the old testament. Although it is the old testament it is still the inspired word of God.

How about the God that promised to reward the 19 men that flew plains into the twin towers in the name of Allah.

I could go on all day. I extend the same suggestion to you sir

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Christians teach their tiny children, at the same time they teach them the horrible force of hell, that every baby is born in sin. This sin is Adam's sin, who they now admit never existed. We have generations of children being told their sins will result in eternity in hell, and their good deeds will land them a spot up in heaven. Morality should be based not on punishment or reward after death, but rather effectually based on sympathy, mutual understanding, and education. It's about time humanity wake up and adopt a morality that is thought-out, reasoned, argued and discussed. It sickens me that most people accept an absolute morality written in a book a little less than 2,000 years ago. We are poisoning our children. Christianity is an enemy of gay's, bestowing on them the type of bigotry it reserved for Jews before 1962. Christianity is an enemy of woman, keeping them from priesthood. An enemy of truth, denouncing condoms as infective. An enemy of science and well being, keeping advancements in genetics from saving lives. Most of all, Christianity is an enemy of education, corrupting children's minds by feeding them lies and subjecting them to guilt.

Woah, let's back this up a little. You're drawing conclusions and betraying reason.

Who ever said Adam never existed? You can take it literally or metaphorically, and it still fits the bill on what is trying to be explained. In the beginning, there was an act of sin. Thus, good and evil became realized.
It's a simple concept of a domino effect. One is pure, one becomes tempted, one sins. They feel ashamed, realize they are naked, hide in fear, etc., Good and evil are realized, and therefore become reality. Adam cursed man forever.
Or better yet, the Adversary did. Vanity is a key term here- it was the original sin before mankind.

See, this is the essence of the OT. God imposed harsh laws, as exaction and balance were needed for sin. Mind you, sin is not an act of evil, but rather it likely ends up resulting in evil acts. This is why God demanded balance and exaction.

Homosexuality- became a sin because God wanted man to grow. The population then was very low, and were very barbaric times in general. If everyone was gay, how does a nation grow? Such was His command to the Levites.
The NT does not speak on homosexuality practically at all, and since it essentially replaced the book of Leviticus in law, I see no reason why it should still be an issue.

As far as what you're saying with 'poisoning children's minds- Most Christians and Christian families I know are very happy and content people. You speak as if it is some kind of disease.
Science has yet to become some magic wand that denounces all of religion. You will be surprised by it's limits.

Just because Christians do not contribute to the efforts of science means very little. Do they have some sort of obligation to do so? Since when did this world become so subjective that everyone must mind each others business?
Let's not forget some of the damage that science has done- vaccines, anti-bacterial soap, disinfectant, etc.- this is why viruses and whatnot get deadlier.
Aesthetics- instead of helping the poor, people are getting boob jobs.
I could go on with a trillion other things in that respect, but the point I'm making is that the world is both too smart for it's own good and too bad for it's own independence all at the same time. A God is simply necessary.

You're idea of the world coming together and adopting universal morals- it'll never happen. Just take a look at history and the world today.
You want to know one theory on why aliens may have not visited Earth? Because they destroyed themselves before they got to that stage of advancement.
Something to marinate on.

 

[Gharib]

How about the God that promised to reward the 19 men that flew plains into the twin towers in the name of Allah.

I could go on all day. I extend the same suggestion to you sir

would you like to provide some evidence in which Allah has siad that he will reward those that kill innocent civilians or those that start wars?

however, if you can't provide any such evidence, then please stop making false accusations about religions.

 

[ChristineES]

The moment you as a human begin to die is the moment when you stop speaking about things that matter. I don't take prejudice very lightly. The Christian God specifically justifies murder as punishment for the act of homosexuality in the old testament. Although it is the old testament it is still the inspired word of God.

How about the God that promised to reward the 19 men that flew plains into the twin towers in the name of Allah.

I could go on all day. I extend the same suggestion to you sir

I am one of those types who never blame an entire group on what a few members have done and I certainly don't blame God or the belief in God. It is the people themselves that do what they do and not the faith they hold. People are individuals- some have a lot of love and others have hatred. It is when people let the hatred overwhelm their being that they do awful things to others. I have a hard time understanding hatred, as I don't believe I have ever hated anyone (although I do get angry at times).

 

[Secunchants]

Christians teach their tiny children, at the same time they teach them the horrible force of hell, that every baby is born in sin. This sin is Adam's sin, who they now admit never existed. We have generations of children being told their sins will result in eternity in hell, and their good deeds will land them a spot up in heaven. Morality should be based not on punishment or reward after death, but rather effectually based on sympathy, mutual understanding, and education. It's about time humanity wake up and adopt a morality that is thought-out, reasoned, argued and discussed. It sickens me that most people accept an absolute morality written in a book a little less than 2,000 years ago. We are poisoning our children. Christianity is an enemy of gay's, bestowing on them the type of bigotry it reserved for Jews before 1962. Christianity is an enemy of woman, keeping them from priesthood. An enemy of truth, denouncing condoms as infective. An enemy of science and well being, keeping advancements in genetics from saving lives. Most of all, Christianity is an enemy of education, corrupting children's minds by feeding them lies and subjecting them to guilt.


[It should be noted that I only refer to Christianity in this post because I am most familiar with it. However. this post was directed toward any thiest religion]

Such intolerance from a guy that wants to liberate.

 

[Sunstone]

Christians teach their tiny children, at the same time they teach them the horrible force of hell, that every baby is born in sin. This sin is Adam's sin, who they now admit never existed. We have generations of children being told their sins will result in eternity in hell, and their good deeds will land them a spot up in heaven. Morality should be based not on punishment or reward after death, but rather effectually based on sympathy, mutual understanding, and education. It's about time humanity wake up and adopt a morality that is thought-out, reasoned, argued and discussed. It sickens me that most people accept an absolute morality written in a book a little less than 2,000 years ago. We are poisoning our children. Christianity is an enemy of gay's, bestowing on them the type of bigotry it reserved for Jews before 1962. Christianity is an enemy of woman, keeping them from priesthood. An enemy of truth, denouncing condoms as infective. An enemy of science and well being, keeping advancements in genetics from saving lives. Most of all, Christianity is an enemy of education, corrupting children's minds by feeding them lies and subjecting them to guilt.


[It should be noted that I only refer to Christianity in this post because I am most familiar with it. However. this post was directed toward any thiest religion]

You really didn't think this through, did you?

Troll alert.

Yup. Either a troll, or might as well be.