Religions favourite argument

[Princeps Eugenius]

Be wary of false patterns.

Our brains evolved to detect specific types of patterns everywhere, particularly patterns of human appearance and behavior. Problem is, that comes with a bit of a... quirk, in that we start instinctively detecting faces on Mars where none exist, and human/human-like agency where none exists.

im not saying these deities are human. but agents. and its still possible for a weather agent to exist. call it zeus or thor who throws his bolts in anger at those who offend him.

 

[McBell]

Okay how about we change the burden and you prove to me that the weather ISNT caused by an agent.

Because I am not making the claim that the weather has no agent.
You are making the claim the weather has an agent.
Until you support that claim, I have no reason to take your claim seriously.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Because I am not making the claim that the weather has no agent.
You are making the claim the weather has an agent.
Until you support that claim, I have no reason to take your claim seriously.

i have given you the possiblity that since all of our social day to day life is caused by agents then that(i had heavy deja-vu at this point, lost train of thought) its likely that other events are also caused by agents. even though we might not perceive them. You dont know that a human being is writing a message to you right now via a computer. You dont know that the weather isnt caused by an agent who has greater powers. But one still takes these things at face value because they seem more rational than their negation. Do you believe that the weather isnt caused by an agent? if so, i would love to hear your argument or evidence for it.

 

[McBell]

i have given you the possiblity that since all of our social day to day life is caused by agents then that(i had heavy deja-vu at this point, lost train of thought)

Now you are moving the goal posts.

And no, merely listing things and then tagging weather on the end does not show a possibility.

A snake is not a mammal, it matters not how long a list of mammals I present then throw a snake at the end of the list.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Now you are moving the goal posts.

And no, merely listing things and then tagging weather on the end does not show a possibility.

A snake is not a mammal, it matters not how long a list of mammals I present then throw a snake at the end of the list.

Why do you believe i am presenting a snake at the end of the list though? just curious.

 

[McBell]

Why do you believe i am presenting a snake at the end of the list though? just curious.

If you prefer I can just as easily say presenting a cow at the end of a list of reptiles.
dog at the end of a list of fish.
amphibian at the end of a list of marsupials.
dandelion at the end of a list of trees.
nail at the end of a list of screws.
lake at the end of a list of planets.

Why are you fixated on the snake and NOT the point of the post?

 

[columbus]

What is evidence, according to you, anyway?

"Information you can share" would be a good start on providing evidence.
That is what makes science superior to religion. Scientists must provide evidence that other people can see and understand or their beliefs don't matter.
Theologians never provide evidence that can be distinguished from a dream or a delusion. If they do it stops being religion and becomes science.
Tom

 

[McBell]

"Information you can share" would be a good start on providing evidence.
That is what makes science superior to religion. Scientists must provide evidence that other people can see and understand or their beliefs don't matter.
Theologians never provide evidence that can be distinguished from a dream or a delusion. If they do it stops being religion and becomes science.
Tom

So empirical evidence, right?
Or objective evidence?
Or perhaps objective empirical evidence?

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

If you prefer I can just as easily say presenting a cow at the end of a list of reptiles.
dog at the end of a list of fish.
amphibian at the end of a list of marsupials.
dandelion at the end of a list of trees.
nail at the end of a list of screws.
lake at the end of a list of planets.

Why are you fixated on the snake and the the point of the post?

No, why do you think i am presenting a snake 'something that is unlike the things which were before it' when i say that weather is caused by an agent?

 

[McBell]

No, why do you think i am presenting a snake 'something that is unlike the things which were before it' when i say that weather is caused by an agent?

because the only thing you have presented in your attempt to support your weather has an agent claim is a list of things with weather at the end.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

"Information you can share" would be a good start on providing evidence.
That is what makes science superior to religion. Scientists must provide evidence that other people can see and understand or their beliefs don't matter.
Theologians never provide evidence that can be distinguished from a dream or a delusion. If they do it stops being religion and becomes science.
Tom

Because religion is not meant to be science and vice versa. Religion is a philosophical VIEW on how the reality of the world is and science is a physical trial and error they have very few things in common. but i have to say that modern science is heavy layed with a natruralistic outlook that nothing divine can exist and only nature is a reality.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

because the only thing you have presented in your attempt to support your weather has an agent claim is a list of things with weather at the end.

again, it only appears to you as a snake because you have a pre-conceived notion that it must be a snake (i.e. weather isnt caused by an agent). what is your argument that its a reptile?

 

[Riverwolf]

im not saying these deities are human. but agents. and its still possible for a weather agent to exist. call it zeus or thor who throws his bolts in anger at those who offend him.

I don't view the Gods in the extrinsic way that Christians have been telling us to do for a thousand years.

Þunor isn't the "agent" that "causes" thunder. Þunor is Þunor: Thunder is, Himself, Thunder.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I don't view the Gods in the extrinsic way that Christians have been telling us to do for a thousand years.

Þunor isn't the "agent" that "causes" thunder. Þunor is Þunor: Thunder is, Himself, Thunder.

I view them as personalizations of events or characteristic of humans occuring in the universe. how do you view them? (Although i must admit that simple personalizations tend to weaken the importance of the deities and actual existence of humanoid gods are more reinforcing in belief)

 

[McBell]

again, it only appears to you as a snake because you have a pre-conceived notion that it must be a snake (i.e. weather isnt caused by an agent). what is your argument that its a reptile?

You are trying to show that because the list of things that have an agent have an agent that by merely sticking weather at the end of the list it must have an agent as well.
So it is YOU with the pre-conceived notion that weather has an agent.
this is evidenced by you adding weather to list of things with agents without showing that weather has an agent, but using said addition as your "evidence" that weather has an agent.

t

 

[Riverwolf]

I view them as personalizations of events or characteristic of humans occuring in the universe. how do you view them? (Although i must admit that simple personalizations tend to weaken the importance of the deities and actual existence of humanoid gods are more reinforcing in belief)

Exactly as I said.

Besides the fact that I think of the term "God" as more of an externally-applied status than an intrinsic quality, the Gods are, in one sense, a way of describing our relationships with given phenomena.

The weather is "caused" exactly by the natural forces that meteorologists describe, as per the current consensus. It doesn't need an external "agent" working on it; it is, itself, made up of the Heaven Gods, for those who revere them.

I certainly don't view them as literal humanoid beings.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

You are trying to show that because the list of things that have an agent have an agent that by merely sticking weather at the end of the list it must have an agent as well.
So it is YOU with the pre-conceived notion that weather has an agent.
this is evidenced by you adding weather to list of things with agents without showing that weather has an agent, but using said addition as your "evidence" that weather has an agent.

t

What? i said that because everything is caused by an agent that therefore weather is also caused by an agent. you say that weather cant be caused by an agent because it somehow doesnt comply to the former definition of 'everything is caused by an agent'. How isnt it?

 

[columbus]

So empirical evidence, right?
Or objective evidence?
Or perhaps objective empirical evidence?

I'm pretty open minded. Supernatural evidence would work. I've just never seen any that can be distinguished from wishful thinking and hallucinations and self-righteous hubris.
God could send a message to everyone about what is true and important. I'd believe it. Instead it is always some human claiming to speak for God I am expected to kowtow to, which is not at all the same.
Tom

 

[McBell]

What? i said that because everything is caused by an agent that therefore weather is also caused by an agent.

Yes.
And that is nothing more than a bold empty claim.

you say that weather cant be caused by an agent because it somehow doesnt comply to the former definition of 'everything is caused by an agent'.

I never made any such claim.

All I have done is point out that you have not support your bold empty claim.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Yes.
And that is nothing more than a bold empty claim.


I never made any such claim.

All I have done is point out that you have not support your bold empty claim.

its not empty since alot of our day to day life is caused by agents its just a step beyond the usual attribution of agents but still since we can say all of our conversations are agents interacting that every other event is also in responsibility of an agent.