religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

[Jollybear]

UFO?

Is it extrordinary because you have not seen a UFO?

or is it extrordinary because it IS a UFO? In otherwords, would it STILL be extrordinary AFTER you seen it?

 

[Polymath257]

What makes the claim extrordinary?

Well, going against the currently believed laws of physics is an example (such would be the case for non-material interactions, for example). Another would be interacting with beings from a different planet when no other detection of such has been presented (radio communication, etc).

In particular, there is a point where the likelihood of hallucination or misinterpretation is much higher than the likelihood that the event is real. At that point, mere individual reports won't be sufficient and some other sort of stronger evidence will be required.

 

[Polymath257]

Is it extrordinary because you have not seen a UFO?

or is it extrordinary because it IS a UFO? In otherwords, would it STILL be extrordinary AFTER you seen it?

No, seeing something that is unidentified is not so unusual. Claiming it is from visitors from another star system is very unusual. The latter will require some rather solid evidence and not just personal testimony to be believed.

 

[Jollybear]

Well, going against the currently believed laws of physics is an example (such would be the case for non-material interactions, for example).

Didnt you say in our last discussion that the quantum world went against the current laws of physics?

Another would be interacting with beings from a different planet when no other detection of such has been presented (radio communication, etc).

And what if aliens just dont care about our radio communications? OR what if they have responded, but the government refuses to officially announce it? Theres more possibilities here.

In particular, there is a point where the likelihood of hallucination or misinterpretation is much higher than the likelihood that the event is real. At that point, mere individual reports won't be sufficient and some other sort of stronger evidence will be required.

My mom and niece both saw a ghostly figure appear to them at the same night. Two people seeing the same thing, the same night is a halucination? I dont think so.

What other interpretation is there for this other then a concious spirit being?

No, seeing something that is unidentified is not so unusual. Claiming it is from visitors from another star system is very unusual.

Is it unusual when millions testify?

My mom, not my niece in this one, saw a UFO. UP VERY CLOSE as well.

The latter will require some rather solid evidence and not just personal testimony to be believed.

Does this not indirectly imply that millions today and through history are not very smart in telling there experiences?

 

[tas8831]

Is it extrordinary because you have not seen a UFO?

I have seen some weird thing - once saw a 'shooting star' hit something in midair and deflect away at about 70 degrees. Found it very terrifying. Technically, I guess that could have been considered a UFO, but I'm not claiming anything beyond that - it looked like several other bolides I have seen, this one just looked like it 'hit' something.

or is it extrordinary because it IS a UFO? In otherwords, would it STILL be extrordinary AFTER you seen it?

Seeing something is not actually evidence regarding what it was that you or I saw. There is a definite connotation with the term UFO, ie., spacecraft from another world. THAT requires some evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Is it extrordinary because you have not seen a UFO?

or is it extrordinary because it IS a UFO? In otherwords, would it STILL be extrordinary AFTER you seen it?

A UFO itself isn't all that extraordinary. After all it's just a flying object that is unidentified by the viewer. A UFO could be any number of things. The extraordinary part would come in if you assumed that UFOs contain alien life forms or something like that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Didnt you say in our last discussion that the quantum world went against the current laws of physics?

And what if aliens just dont care about our radio communications? OR what if they have responded, but the government refuses to officially announce it? Theres more possibilities here.

Evidence would be required to make such claims. Otherwise, you're just engaging in wild speculation.

My mom and niece both saw a ghostly figure appear to them at the same night. Two people seeing the same thing, the same night is a halucination? I dont think so.

What other interpretation is there for this other then a concious spirit being?

How about shadows? You know, our minds can play tricks on us in the dark, while our brains are trying to make sense of our dim surroundings. Our brains are wired to look for patterns, which is why we tend to see things like faces in the shadows. When I was a kid, I used to see faces in all the shadows, and for a while there, I thought there were ghost faces all over the place and I was pretty scared for a while. That doesn't mean what I was seeing were actual faces of ghosts.

Why jump to "conscious spirit being" when we have no evidence that "conscious spirit beings" even exist in the first place? What is a "conscious spirit being" anyway?

Is it unusual when millions testify?

My mom, not my niece in this one, saw a UFO. UP VERY CLOSE as well.

A UFO is just a flying object that is unidentified by the person viewing it. It could be any number of things that are unknown to the viewer. There's no reason to assume there are aliens on board. Again, that is just humans projecting their own beliefs onto what they are seeing. Like your claim of "conscious spirit beings."

Does this not indirectly imply that millions today and through history are not very smart in telling there experiences?

It means that people are biased by their preconceptions, and come up with their own explanations for things they experience, which aren't always accurate explanations for what has actually happened.

This is why we conduct controlled studies to test such things.

 

[ecco]

My mom and niece both saw a ghostly figure appear to them at the same night. Two people seeing the same thing, the same night is a halucination? I dont think so.

What other interpretation is there for this other then a concious spirit being?

So now it's you and your mom and your niece. Maybe there is something to the idea that it's "in the genes" for people to readily accept woo.

Did your mom and your niece call each other the next morning to discuss the ghostly visions? Or were they together at a family gathering much later and the discussion turned to spirits?

Ya know, I saw a ghostly figure appear one night.
Really so did I!!
Was that back on May 1st?
Yes, yes, I'm sure it was on May first.

Uh huh.

Have you ever heard of John Edward or James Van Praagh? They are two people who make their money suckering people like you.

Is it unusual when millions testify?

It is not about whether it is unusual, it is about the possibility of something being an actual event.

My mom, not my niece in this one, saw a UFO. UP VERY CLOSE as well.

Hundreds have testified they were abducted into alien spacecraft and underwent extensive physicals. These are extraordinary claims. Other than anecdotal "testimony" there is not a single shred of evidence.

 

[Polymath257]

Didnt you say in our last discussion that the quantum world went against the current laws of physics?

Um, no. Quantum mechanics *is* the current understanding of the laws of physics. As is General Relativity.

And what if aliens just dont care about our radio communications? OR what if they have responded, but the government refuses to officially announce it? Theres more possibilities here.

I'm just saying what is required for the evidence to be sufficient. If the government has conclusive evidence and refuses to admit it, then for us mere mortals it is the same as no evidence.

My mom and niece both saw a ghostly figure appear to them at the same night. Two people seeing the same thing, the same night is a halucination? I dont think so.

Or common misinterpretation?

What other interpretation is there for this other then a concious spirit being?

Without further details, I cannot say.

Is it unusual when millions testify?

My mom, not my niece in this one, saw a UFO. UP VERY CLOSE as well.

Does this not indirectly imply that millions today and through history are not very smart in telling there experiences?

No. it means that people default to bad explanations for some phenomena. That is hardly a surprise.

 

[Audie]

Um, no. Quantum mechanics *is* the current understanding of the laws of physics. As is General Relativity.



I'm just saying what is required for the evidence to be sufficient. If the government has conclusive evidence and refuses to admit it, then for us mere mortals it is the same as no evidence.



Or common misinterpretation?



Without further details, I cannot say.



No. it means that people default to bad explanations for some phenomena. That is hardly a surprise.

Here is an interesting coincidence:
FACT CHECK: Laura Buxton Balloon Coincidence

 

[charlie sc]

I wonder how the soul can explain split brain syndrome

 

[Jollybear]

Um, no. Quantum mechanics *is* the current understanding of the laws of physics. As is General Relativity.

Remember i had said chance dont exist? And i cited the coin flippin machine? Showing that under controlled confitions chance dont exist. Thats the laws of physics. Then you said the quantum world shows chance. Then i asked for a source and thats when the discussion ended.

The quantom world does not prove chance exists, there is differences with the quontum world and the everyday normal world. But the quantum world is effected by concious abservation. There is still predictability within it.

But, lets assume chance exists, then your statement here to my question about why a UFO is extrordinary should not be hard to believe then, because by "chance" these flying saucers would exist and move the way they do. >

"Well, going against the currently believed laws of physics is an example (such would be the case for non-material interactions,"

I'm just saying what is required for the evidence to be sufficient. If the government has conclusive evidence and refuses to admit it, then for us mere mortals it is the same as no evidence.

No, the evidence is still there by millions of testimonies. Why does something have to be true JUST BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT says it is? Even the government saying it would still be a testimony. A testimony from the government.

Or common misinterpretation?

What else could it be interpreted as?

Without further details, I cannot say.

Ok, well heres the details. Mom and niece go to there country bungalo for the night. At some point after they got there, a lightning bolt struck. Then this being of light that looked like a male figure appeared in the room where they wer. Just a few feet from where they wer. He looked at them for a brief moment, then turned left and went through the wall. They both go outside to see him and he was gone.

Also, there was a hole in the ground from the lightning bolt.

Oddly, the next morning the hole was gone.

I asked my niece and my mom seperately and they told me the same story. Years later, i asked them again and they stand by it the same.

Also the details of the saucer that only my mom, not my niece saw. It was triangle. Lights all around the rim and a larger light in the center. It was as close to here as the hight of a telephone pole. Was very large and made no noise. It was hovering closer to her, then she ran in fear. Then it backed away from her, then flew off like a speed of light. She said the sky sucked into itself like a tunnel as it took off so fast.

Theres the details.

No. it means that people default to bad explanations for some phenomena. That is hardly a surprise.

How do you know people are defaulting to bad explanations? Wer not talking of just little lights in the sky far away and people calling it alien saucers here. Nor are we talking about people saying they thought they saw a ghost in the corner of there eye. No, many of these testimonies are crisp and clear experiences.

 

[Jollybear]

So now it's you and your mom and your niece. Maybe there is something to the idea that it's "in the genes" for people to readily accept woo.

If theres a gene for these beliefs, then theres a gene for your beliefs. And if thats the case, it truely is pointless for all of us to debate, because i wont be able to help but believe and you wont be able to help but disbelieve.

Further, if it is genes, too bad for you that you got the unlucky gene pale!

But hey, i doubt its all genes. My dad is a DIE HEART atheist. Like you. I have his genes, but im nowhere near an atheist.

Did your mom and your niece call each other the next morning to discuss the ghostly visions? Or were they together at a family gathering much later and the discussion turned to spirits?

Mocking will get you nowhere. All it does is reveal your motivations and thus makes you look bad. But hey, continue on making yourself look bad. Good job.

Ya know, I saw a ghostly figure appear one night.
Really so did I!!
Was that back on May 1st?
Yes, yes, I'm sure it was on May first.

Uh huh.

Uh huh, yourself.

Have you ever heard of John Edward or James Van Praagh? They are two people who make their money suckering people like you.

And my mom and niece dont make money off there testimony "suckering people like me". Also my own experiences, i dont sucker myself.

It is not about whether it is unusual, it is about the possibility of something being an actual event.

Woe! A sentence we agree on, oh my god! Lol, i think the sky is gonna fall over that.

Hundreds have testified they were abducted into alien spacecraft and underwent extensive physicals. These are extraordinary claims. Other than anecdotal "testimony" there is not a single shred of evidence.

Why is claims of alien abductions extrordinary? Is it because either

1, it did not happen to you, or

2, you never saw it happen?

And IF you saw it or had it happen, would it be extrordinary THEN?

 

[ecco]

Did your mom and your niece call each other the next morning to discuss the ghostly visions? Or were they together at a family gathering much later and the discussion turned to spirits?

Mocking will get you nowhere. All it does is reveal your motivations and thus makes you look bad. But hey, continue on making yourself look bad. Good job.

I wasn't mocking. I was asking questions. Nevertheless, you addressed those questions in your response to polymath...

Ok, well heres the details. Mom and niece go to there country bungalo for the night. At some point after they got there, a lightning bolt struck. Then this being of light that looked like a male figure appeared in the room where they wer. Just a few feet from where they wer. He looked at them for a brief moment, then turned left and went through the wall. They both go outside to see him and he was gone.
Also, there was a hole in the ground from the lightning bolt.

Oddly, the next morning the hole was gone.

"a lightning bolt struck". Since lightning strikes occur all the time, I'll assume this one must have been really close to be so notable. So what do we have? A very intense bright light that caused a vague image to form on their retinas, which was interpreted as a male figure who looked at them and disappeared.

Perhaps you, your mother and niece should familiarize yourselves with "afterimages". That and the shock of a very close lightning strike could easily explain the "male figure". As far as the disappearing hole in the ground; they went outside in the dark and with eyes still affected by the light inside the cabin and the lightning bolt; they saw a hole in the ground? Most human eyes don't adapt to the dark very quickly.

Also, your own version of the story has changed somewhat with each telling. Here is what you originally said...

My mom and niece both saw a ghostly figure appear to them at the same night. Two people seeing the same thing, the same night is a halucination?

That implied there were two separate instances of people each seeing a ghostly apparition. Now we learn they were together.

 

[Polymath257]

Remember i had said chance dont exist? And i cited the coin flippin machine? Showing that under controlled confitions chance dont exist. Thats the laws of physics. Then you said the quantum world shows chance. Then i asked for a source and thats when the discussion ended.

Source: any textbook on quantum mechanics.

The quantom world does not prove chance exists, there is differences with the quontum world and the everyday normal world. But the quantum world is effected by concious abservation. There is still predictability within it.

But, lets assume chance exists, then your statement here to my question about why a UFO is extrordinary should not be hard to believe then, because by "chance" these flying saucers would exist and move the way they do. >

Which only shows you don't understand the role of chance in QM. In fact, QM precisely calculates the probabilities and those probabilities are then verified by observation. It does NOT allow something large like a UFO to magically appear.

"Well, going against the currently believed laws of physics is an example (such would be the case for non-material interactions,"

No, the evidence is still there by millions of testimonies. Why does something have to be true JUST BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT says it is? Even the government saying it would still be a testimony. A testimony from the government.

No, I don't think the government is the arbiter of truth. But the evidence of 'millions' is not quite the situation. People also had direct experience of witches at one point. All this means is that people are *very* good at deluding themselves.

What else could it be interpreted as?

Ok, well heres the details. Mom and niece go to there country bungalo for the night. At some point after they got there, a lightning bolt struck. Then this being of light that looked like a male figure appeared in the room where they wer. Just a few feet from where they wer. He looked at them for a brief moment, then turned left and went through the wall. They both go outside to see him and he was gone.

I'd suggest an after-image. These are common and can produce exactly the effect you had in multiple people.

Also, there was a hole in the ground from the lightning bolt.

Oddly, the next morning the hole was gone.

I asked my niece and my mom seperately and they told me the same story. Years later, i asked them again and they stand by it the same.

OK. How well do they understand the mechanics of perception? Have they been trained to note specifics? What emotional state were they in?

Sorry, but this is hardly at the level required to prove your case, or actually to make it worthwhile investigating further.

Also the details of the saucer that only my mom, not my niece saw. It was triangle. Lights all around the rim and a larger light in the center. It was as close to here as the hight of a telephone pole. Was very large and made no noise. It was hovering closer to her, then she ran in fear. Then it backed away from her, then flew off like a speed of light. She said the sky sucked into itself like a tunnel as it took off so fast.

Theres the details.

Again, there are any number of visual effects that can do things like this, from after images, to outright hallucinations.

How do you know people are defaulting to bad explanations? Wer not talking of just little lights in the sky far away and people calling it alien saucers here. Nor are we talking about people saying they thought they saw a ghost in the corner of there eye. No, many of these testimonies are crisp and clear experiences.

And people who are crazy will also have *crisp and clear* experiences that they are Napoleon. I would like to see *physical* evidence. Something that can be seen by those who don't believe.

 

[ecco]

It is not about whether it is unusual, it is about the possibility of something being an actual event.

Woe! A sentence we agree on, oh my god! Lol, i think the sky is gonna fall over that.

If you think we agree, it is because you didn't understand what I wrote.

Why is claims of alien abductions extrordinary? Is it because either
1, it did not happen to you, or
2, you never saw it happen?

How clever of you to post only two options, both of which aid your argument. Was that intentional, or can you really think of no other possibilities?

How about this.
It is extraordinary that an advanced alien race would come to earth.
It is extraordinary that an advanced alien race would need to abduct humans to examine them.

That's the extraordinary part. People claiming to have been abducted is not extraordinary.

And IF you saw it or had it happen, would it be extrordinary THEN?

Again, you try to set up biased questions. If "it happened to me" I would evaluate how probable it was that "my experience" was a direct result of something I was doing immediately prior to my "abduction". Forum rules do not permit me to go into more detail.

 

[charlie sc]

Oh man, I respect your efforts Ecco and Polymath, but it’s a fruitless endeavour. Jollybear is arguing from reversed burden of evidence. It’s your job to show evidence that psi/souls/whatever does not exist, it’s not his job to show it does. Anecdotal evidence, including testimony, is the standard of evidence for him. However, there is no testimony that can disprove souls; obviously, we know why. It’s an unfalsifiable and unverifiable position. You can not disprove this kind of positive claim.

Enjoy though

 

[Jollybear]

I wasn't mocking. I was asking questions.

Asking in a mocking way, which thus deserves no answer from me. Your not a worthy debate appoinent.

Nevertheless, you addressed those questions in your response to polymath...

"Uh huh"

"a lightning bolt struck". Since lightning strikes occur all the time, I'll assume this one must have been really close to be so notable. So what do we have? A very intense bright light that caused a vague image to form on their retinas, which was interpreted as a male figure who looked at them and disappeared.

Boy, you guys explain away everything dontcha?

But, ok, this opens up a whole new set of questions.

Why would the lightning cause a male figure to come on there retina? And not say some other image, like a ball or star, like yea see when ya look at the sun?

Also, why would it cause a male figure in BOTH my mom and nieces eyes?

Also, the lightning bolt struck outside, not in the cottage.

Perhaps you, your mother and niece should familiarize yourselves with "afterimages". That and the shock of a very close lightning strike could easily explain the "male figure".

Thats not true. If they SAW the lightning strike, it would not put in there retina a male figure, it would put in the retina the after image of the lightning shape itself. And that shape does not have a head, neck, arms, torso and legs. Furthermore, i just texted my mom for these additional details and she said only she saw the lightning out the window, but my niece did not see it.

But, also, she said the male figure appeared BEFORE the lightning strike anyway. So, that means you gotta come up with a new interpretation.

As far as the disappearing hole in the ground; they went outside in the dark and with eyes still affected by the light inside the cabin and the lightning bolt; they saw a hole in the ground? Most human eyes don't adapt to the dark very quickly.

My mistake, not a hole, a black or burnt spot she said.

Also, your own version of the story has changed somewhat with each telling. Here is what you originally said...


That implied there were two separate instances of people each seeing a ghostly apparition. Now we learn they were together.

Huh? Your inserting meaning i never intended or said. No, i never changed the story at all. You are doing that.

Im saying they both saw the apparition at the same time, in the same location. They had there own seperate sight of it. That rules out halucination.

 

[Jollybear]

Gotta reply to the rest tomorow. Tired and need to go to bed.

 

[tas8831]

Ok, well heres the details. Mom and niece go to there country bungalo for the night. At some point after they got there, a lightning bolt struck. Then this being of light that looked like a male figure appeared in the room where they wer. Just a few feet from where they wer. He looked at them for a brief moment, then turned left and went through the wall. They both go outside to see him and he was gone.

Also, there was a hole in the ground from the lightning bolt.

Oddly, the next morning the hole was gone.

Yes, so odd...

I asked my niece and my mom seperately and they told me the same story. Years later, i asked them again and they stand by it the same.

Also the details of the saucer that only my mom, not my niece saw. It was triangle. Lights all around the rim and a larger light in the center. It was as close to here as the hight of a telephone pole. Was very large and made no noise. It was hovering closer to her, then she ran in fear. Then it backed away from her, then flew off like a speed of light. She said the sky sucked into itself like a tunnel as it took off so fast.

Theres the details.

Weird how there were added details years later.

Extraordinary - a hole that disappeared, a lightning -man walks through a wall...


But no extraordinary evidence.

Sounds like mom and niece ate from funny mushrooms or something.