Religious bigotry is not part of Shinto.

[Spiderman]

I color or Bolden my posts so you know the important stuff and don't have to read the full article.

People have done heinous crimes in the name of Shinto. Some Shinto adherents and leaders were bigots too.

However, the Religion of Shinto has no inerrant divinely inspired text that can be used to justify those crimes. The Bible and Quran on the other hand, do indeed justify heinous crimes, bigotry, calls to violence, and genocide.

This is why I cannot be a Christian , Muslim, or follow most Abrahamic faiths. To be a Christian, Muslim, or most of those sects, I have to believe those Scriptures (sacred texts) are without error , and inspired by God, or I'm declared a heretic.

The Bible and Quran also speak of tossing people into a lake of fire or torturing them after their death.

The difference between violent Abrahamic Religious people and Regimes, and violent Shinto regimes, is violent adherents to Shinto are not receiving messages from a sacred text that is without error, telling them it's okay to kill, judge, and condemn.

The Bible and Quran has caused billions of people to believe that people are tortured after their death for being unbelievers, Idolaters, or certain sins.

That is found in those inerrant words of God. It has nothing to do with Shinto.

There is no bigotry in Shinto that I am aware of. The Bible and Quran speak of a wrathfull God who burns cities, commands genocides, calls people to "kill the Polytheists wherever you find them", tosses people into a lake of fire, and the gruesome amputation of limbs and tortures found in the Quran, simply makes me ill, because regimes have done that stuff in my lifetime, and their Holy book can be used to justify it.

Many Shinto adherents committed heinous crimes, but I will let you know, not all Kami are good. There are bloodthirsty mischievous malevolent Kami that can inspire people to do bad.

But in Shinto there is also a tradition that bad Kami can become your friend and do good and change. And I think that is just beautiful.


But Shinto never commands anyone to kill, judge, condemn, or be a bigot. The original Shinto shrines were blessed trees and Shinto followers found Kami in nature, woodlands, mountains, caves, rivers, bodies of water, islands, and sacred places.

Shinto later had a practice of building homes, Hondens, (rooms and structures closed to the public , for the enshrined Kami to dwell)

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Kamidana cupboards for Kami to dwell and be loved and blessed. Then the Kami return the love and blessings. Kami grow, evolve, heal, and transform into greater Kami through our prayers, offerings, sacrifices, and blessings.



"Shinto ("the way of the Kami") is the name of the formal state religion of Japan that was first used in the 6th century C.E., although the roots of the religion go back to at least the 6th century B.C.E. Shinto has no founder, no official sacred texts, and no formalized system of doctrine. Shinto has been formative in developing uniquely Japanese attitudes and sensitivities, creating a distinct Japanese consciousness. Belief in kami—sacred or divine beings, although also understood to be spiritual essences—is one of the foundations of Shinto.



Shinto understands that the kami not only exist as spiritual beings, but also in nature; they are within mountains, trees, rivers, and even geographical regions. In this sense, the kami are not like the all-powerful divine beings found in Western religion, but the abstract creative forces in nature. Related to the kami is the understanding that the Shinto followers are supposed to live in harmony and peaceful coexistence with both nature and other human beings. This has enabled Shinto to exist in harmony with other religious traditions
Shinto Origins, Shinto History, Shinto Beliefs


"At the core of Shinto are beliefs in the mysterious creating and harmonizing power (musubi) of kami and in the truthful way (makoto) of kami. The nature of kami cannot be fully explained in words, because kami transcends the cognitive faculty of man.

Today, parishioners of a shrine believe in their tutelary kami as the source of human life and existence. Each kami has a divine personality and responds to truthful prayers.

Truthful way or will (makoto) of kami is revealed to people and guides them to live in accordance with it. In traditional Japanese thought, truth manifests itself in empirical existence and undergoes transformation in infinite varieties in time and space. In Shinto , good deities are said to cooperate with one another, and life lived in accordance with a kami's will, is believed to produce a mystical power that gains the protection, cooperation, and approval of all the particular kami.

A common Shinto saying is that "man is kami's child." First, this means that a person was given his life by kami and that his nature is therefore sacred. In actuality, however, this divine nature is seldom revealed in man, which gives rise to the need for purification an individual must revere the basic human rights of everyone as well as his own.

Shinto is described as a religion of tsunagari ("continuity or community"). The Japanese, while recognizing each man as an individual personality, do not take him as a solitary being separated from others. On the contrary, he is regarded as the bearer of a long, continuous history that comes down from his ancestors and continues in his descendants. Shinto adherents are called to invoke their ancestors, love them, pray for them, and bless them.

From the viewpoint of finite individuals, Shintoists also stress naka-ima ("middle present"), which repeatedly appears in the Imperial edicts of the 8th century. According to this point of view, the present moment is the very center in the middle of all conceivable times. In order to participate directly in the eternal development of the world, it is required of Shintoists to live fully each moment of life, making it as worthy as possible.

The General Principles of Shinto Life proclaimed by the Association of Shinto Shrines in 1956 has the following article: "In accordance with the Emperor's will, let us be harmonious and peaceful, and pray for the nation's development as well as the world's co-prosperity."
Shinto Beliefs - ReligionFacts


This is not a blog but a debate. Is the violence that Shinto adherents committed in the name of Shinto, intrinsic to the nature and essence of Shinto?

If so, how?

Keep in mind, Shinto existed long before Jesus Christ, it just wasn't called Shinto.

 

[Spiderman]

Shinto also is not commonly practiced in Japan. A lot of the people that committed crimes in the name of state Shinto , were not devout prayerful people.

Shinto allows people the liberty to follow their conscience and choose the path that works best for them. Everyone can choose a different path and still be a Shinto adherent.

Shinto doesn't have binding teachings everyone is required to believe for salvation.

 

[Nakosis]

When Shinto had to be prohibited by the Japanese government.
BBC - Religions - Shinto: Shinto and nationalism

It is hereby directed that:
a. The sponsorship, support, perpetuation, control, and dissemination of Shinto by the Japanese national, prefectual, and local governments, or by public officials, subordinates, and employees acting in their official capacity are prohibited and will cease immediately.

Seems when a belief becomes a state sponsored religion, it goes bad.

 

[Spiderman]

What bothers me about Christianity, Islam, and Abrahamic sects, is they commit the heinous atrocities and say "God told us to do it".

That isn't found in the essence and nature or doctrines of Shinto, therefore it isn't the Shinto Religion that is at fault or encouraging the atrocious behavior, bigotry, genocides, and condemning souls to hell.

With Abrahamic sects, that behavior is actually part of the essence and nature of the Religion. You see the difference?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

What bothers me about Christianity, Islam, and Abrahamic sects, is they commit the heinous atrocities and say "God told us to do it".

That isn't found in the essence and nature or doctrines of Shinto, therefore it isn't the Shinto Religion that is at fault or encouraging the atrocious behavior, bigotry, genocides, and condemning souls to hell.

With Abrahamic sects, that behavior is actually part of the essence and nature of the Religion. You see the difference?

Who is to say the Abrahamic religions are correct?

Is it possible they’re all false?

Cults organized to control the masses and make then feel somewhat happy perhaps?

 

[Spiderman]

Who is to say the Abrahamic religions are correct?

Is it possible they’re all false?

Cults organized to control the masses and make then feel somewhat happy perhaps?

They all have pieces of wisdom and some truth.

I hope they are containing some errors , because I don't want people tossed into a lake of fire.

I wouldn't do that to someone, and I believe God has a responsibility to prove to his Angels and followers that he is more loving, kind , and merciful than I.

They could be cults to control the masses as you say.

I'm concerned that billions of people believe the Quran and Bible is without error. It sounds very disturbing, disconcerting, and depressing to me.

 

[Brinne]

This is kind of inherently based on a false premise that East Asian societies had the same view of religion as Western societies. Shinto is action centric and syncretic (within its East Asian context - practitioners and clergy do not approve of mixing Shinto with something like norse paganism) meaning that there is almost no one who would call themselves a “shintoist” but the vast majority of the population “practice” Shinto.

Though secondly State Shinto and the Shinto Directive were utilized to assert racist claims as well as carry out war crimes. Shinto was also utilized as a tool of attempted colonization and assimilation in Korea, Taiwan (Formosa) and other regions of South East Asia.

That’s not to say Shinto is inherently “evil” but like any ideology on the face of the planet it can be and has been utilized to carry out terrible things. But no ideology is immune to that, when humans are involved.

 

[Spiderman]

This is kind of inherently based on a false premise that East Asian societies had the same view of religion as Western societies. Shinto is action centric and syncretic (within its East Asian context - practitioners and clergy do not approve of mixing Shinto with something like norse paganism) meaning that there is almost no one who would call themselves a “shintoist” but the vast majority of the population “practice” Shinto.

Though secondly State Shinto and the Shinto Directive were utilized to assert racist claims as well as carry out war crimes. Shinto was also utilized as a tool of attempted colonization and assimilation in Korea, Taiwan (Formosa) and other regions of South East Asia.

That’s not to say Shinto is inherently “evil” but like any ideology on the face of the planet it can be and has been utilized to carry out terrible things. But no ideology is immune to that, when humans are involved.

The Shinto clergy at Yasukuni Shrine asked the Pope to celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls enshrined at Yasukuni.

Why would they ask for a Mass offered for the dead if they didn't believe the mass had power for the Kami?

Also, I already said heinous crimes have been committed by Shinto adherents.

I'm wondering if that was a practice of the original Shinto adherents , or if there is anything in the intrinsic nature and essence of Shinto that encourages bad behavior.

It sounds to me like the original practicioners of Shinto simply believed Kami could be found in nature, and certain trees and places were sacred to the Kami, and the dead can become Kami. It sounds like originally Shinto was simply about loving nature, loving spirit beings, and seeking enlightenment from wise benevolent Kami , and Mother Amaterasu Omikami, Divinity of the rising Sun.

I would also argue that since the Quran and Bible have many calls to violence, bigotry, and threats of torture in Hell, that such doctrines and behaviors are supported by, or intrinsic to the very nature and essence of Abrahamic sects.

 

[Brinne]

The Shinto clergy at Yasukuni Shrine asked the Pope to celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls enshrined at Yasukuni.

Why would they ask for a Mass offered for the dead if they didn't believe the mass had power for the Kami?

Also, I already said heinous crimes have been committed by Shinto adherents.

I'm wondering if that was a practice of the original Shinto adherents , or if there is anything in the intrinsic nature and essence of Shinto that encourages bad behavior.

It sounds to me like the original practicioners of Shinto simply believed Kami could be found in nature, and certain trees and places were sacred to the Kami, and the dead can become Kami. It sounds like originally Shinto was simply about loving nature, loving spirit beings, and seeking enlightenment from wise benevolent Kami , and Mother Amaterasu Omikami, Divinity of the rising Sun.

I would also argue that since the Quran and Bible have many calls to violence, bigotry, and threats of torture in Hell, that such doctrines and behaviors are supported by, or intrinsic to the very nature and essence of Abrahamic sects.

Inter-faith dialogue =/= syncretism outright. The Ecumenical Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Pope Francis openly pray together but those two churches are no closer to recognizing each other's legitimacy as an apostolic institution.

Is Shinto an Open Religion? Here is a link discussing what 'open religion' means in the context of Shinto. Shinto is not to be decontextualized from it's original context.

Shinto does posses violence in much of its lore however. That doesn't equate to every practioners being violent. The same could be said of Abrahamic religions, where the vast majority are pretty non-violent. Violence and things we consider to be 'bad' are pretty universal in most cultural and religious history, but that doesn't make for an belief system that is 'intrinsically' open to violence.

Any ideology can be a mechanism for violence, regardless of its message. The reason Shinto may appear 'less violent' is because ideologically it's had a less smaller impact on the world than say the Abrahamic faiths; thus a smaller more secluded sample size to commit violence.

 

[Spiderman]

Inter-faith dialogue =/= syncretism outright. The Ecumenical Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Pope Francis openly pray together but those two churches are no closer to recognizing each other's legitimacy as an apostolic institution.

Is Shinto an Open Religion? Here is a link discussing what 'open religion' means in the context of Shinto. Shinto is not to be decontextualized from it's original context.

Shinto does posses violence in much of its lore however. That doesn't equate to every practioners being violent. The same could be said of Abrahamic religions, where the vast majority are pretty non-violent. Violence and things we consider to be 'bad' are pretty universal in most cultural and religious history, but that doesn't make for an belief system that is 'intrinsically' open to violence.

Any ideology can be a mechanism for violence, regardless of its message. The reason Shinto may appear 'less violent' is because ideologically it's had a less smaller impact on the world than say the Abrahamic faiths; thus a smaller more secluded sample size to commit violence.

The violent lore in Shinto can be rejected, as I do, because it isn't considered to be without error or inspired by Kami.

Billions of people believe the Bible and Quran are inspired by God and without error.

Lore is not part of the essence of Shinto. The Bible and Quran is the word of God and intrinsic to the essence and nature of the Abrahamic God. Big difference!

 

[Brinne]

The violent lore in Shinto can be rejected, as I do, because it isn't considered to be without error or inspired by Kami.

Billions of people believe the Bible and Quran are inspired by God and without error.

Lore is not part of the essence of Shinto. The Bible and Quran is the word of God and intrinsic to the essence and nature of the Abrahamic God. Big difference!

Folklore is most certainly important to a folk religion. The stories and written records of the Shinto mythology are intrinsic to Japanese culture and can't simply be dismissed -- to do so is to ignore where most traditions derive from. Adopting Shinto is in part adopting a large chunk of Japanese culture and customs.

People can question the validity of the lore sure; but just as someone in the Abrahamic faith could very well do. And people do, do just that.

 

[Spiderman]

Folklore is most certainly important to a folk religion. The stories and written records of the Shinto mythology are intrinsic to Japanese culture and can't simply be dismissed -- to do so is to ignore where most traditions derive from. Adopting Shinto is in part adopting a large chunk of Japanese culture and customs.

People can question the validity of the lore sure; but just as someone in the Abrahamic faith could very well do. And people do, do just that.

Most Abrahamic sects , in fact every Christian and Muslim i met, declare their sacred text to be the word of God, inspired, or without error.

I think some Japanese folklore is ridiculous, and don't believe it is all inspired by Kami.

Shinto gives me, and everyone, the liberty to love, bless, and enshrine Kami, and practice Shinto, in a peaceful loving way, without having to believe in folklore.

It's what I've been repeatedly trying to get across to @firedragon in vain. He thinks some how the behaviors of Emperor Jimmu need to be defended. I don't even know if the stories about Jimmu are true.

Shinto is not founded by Jimmu, neither does Shinto declare Jimmu to be a messenger that I must obey, and Shinto existed before the Imperial dynasty.

The belief that the Emperor descended from Amaterasu Omikami, the Sun Goddess, is actually not a binding, infallible Doctrine, that you are required to believe , to be in good standing with Shinto Dogma/Religion.

I will say, it is the oldest surviving dynasty on earth, which could be a sign of Divine providence, but Shinto is not telling anyone they are required to believe in that tradition.

 

[Brinne]

Most Abrahamic sects , in fact every Christian and Muslim i met, declare their sacred text to be the word of God.

I think some Japanese folklore is ridiculous, and don't believe it is all inspired by Kami.

Shinto gives me, and everyone, the liberty to love, bless, and enshrine Kami, and practice Shinto, in a peaceful loving way, without having to believe in folklore.

It's what I've been repeatedly trying to get across to @firedragon in vain. He thinks some how the behaviors of Emperor Jimmu need to be defended. I don't even know if the stories about Jimmu are true.

Shinto is not founded by Jimmu, neither does Shinto declare Jimmu to be a messenger that I must obey, and Shinto existed before the Imperial dynasty.

The belief that the Emperor descended from Amaterasu Omikami, the Sun Goddess, is actually not a binding, infallible Doctrine, that you are required to believe , to be in good standing with Shinto Dogma/Religion.

I will say, it is the oldest surviving dynasty on earth, which could be a sign of Divine providence, but Shinto is not telling anyone they are required to believe in that tradition.

Then I would recommend speaking to more people in the Abrahamic faiths; because there's a great diversity of opinions and interpretations of scripture.

Yes, Shinto is action-centric but to dismiss all of the recorded lore and folklore which exists in Ko-Shinto is kind of silly -- because then you're removing it from its context.

I personally just find the white washing of Shinto's history and utilization of it as a club to beat others belief systems with as kind of questionable.

 

[Spiderman]

Then I would recommend speaking to more people in the Abrahamic faiths; because there's a great diversity of opinions and interpretations of scripture.

Yes, Shinto is action-centric but to dismiss all of the recorded lore and folklore which exists in Ko-Shinto is kind of silly -- because then you're removing it from its context.

I personally just find the white washing of Shinto's history and utilization of it as a club to beat others belief systems with as kind of questionable.

What percentage of Christians and Muslims and Jews do you think believe the Bible or Quran is with error?

I have known many Christians and used to pray at a mosque. The New testament says all Scriptures are inspired by God , and Muslims I have talked to say the Quran is without error.

You have known Christians or Muslims who believe their text contains errors? Please share.

Also, the only thing I'm beating with a club is genocide, torture, and bigotry.

Other than that, Christianity and Islam is great.

And I never said I reject all folklore. Why did you say that? I said some of it isn't inspired by Kami, and I find some of it ridiculous.

I follow my conscience above any ancient text (full of calls to violence) and I encourage others to love and reject what is against love (violence, genocide , tortures in hell etc.). And that offends you why??

 

[Spiderman]

Then I would recommend speaking to more people in the Abrahamic faiths; because there's a great diversity of opinions and interpretations of scripture.

Yes, Shinto is action-centric but to dismiss all of the recorded lore and folklore which exists in Ko-Shinto is kind of silly -- because then you're removing it from its context.

I personally just find the white washing of Shinto's history and utilization of it as a club to beat others belief systems with as kind of questionable.

I love you, but Your statement about me whitewashing Shinto history is a nonsensical statement. I can prove I never whitewashed anything, because I described in the OP crimes of many Shinto adherents as being heinous, which means wicked.

I never whitewashed anything and so you couldn't be more mistaken. I'm completely disgusted with some of what Shinto practitioners did. I thought I made that very clear.

Apparently you never read the OP or many things I said.

 

[Brinne]

What percentage of Christians and Muslims and Jews do you think believe the Bible or Quran is with error?

I have known many Christians and used to pray at a mosque. The New testament says all Scriptures are inspired by God , and Muslims I have talked to say the Quran is without error.

You have known Christians or Muslims who believe their text contains errors? Please share.

Also, the only thing I'm beating with a club is genocide, torture, and bigotry.

Other than that, Christianity and Islam is great.

And I never said I reject all folklore. Why did you say that? I said some of it isn't inspired by Kami, and I find some of it ridiculous.

I follow my conscience above any ancient text (full of calls to violence) and I encourage others to love and reject what is against love (violence, genocide , tortures in hell etc.). And that offends you why??

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/interpreting-scripture/#religious-tradition-trend - Pew Research survey on interpretation of scripture broken down by religious groups (in the USA)

So yes, there is a diversity of opinion among Muslims, Christians and Jews. People may paint a uniform picture but its simply not true; especially for such a massive portion of the world population.

You said you simply ignore folklore you dislike.

I'm against the white washing, fetishization, and decontextualization of East Asian religions because historically it's led to a very ahistorical Western-centric understanding of Asian cultures. Also painting Shinto as a system of institutions and belief system which can "do no wrong" is incredibly dangerous.

I'm also against a false premise that asserts "when my in-group does bad things they're not part of my in-group" but "when an out-group I dislike does a bad thing its representative of the entire out-group and its intrinsic qualities." I think it's poisoning the well and prevents a good faith discussion.

I have nothing against you or Shinto.

 

[Spiderman]

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/interpreting-scripture/#religious-tradition-trend - Pew Research survey on interpretation of scripture broken down by religious groups (in the USA)

So yes, there is a diversity of opinion among Muslims, Christians and Jews. People may paint a uniform picture but its simply not true; especially for such a massive portion of the world population.

You said you simply ignore folklore you dislike.

I'm against the white washing, fetishization, and decontextualization of East Asian religions because historically it's led to a very ahistorical Western-centric understanding of Asian cultures. Also painting Shinto as a system of institutions and belief system which can "do no wrong" is incredibly dangerous.

I'm also against a false premise that asserts "when my in-group does bad things they're not part of my in-group" but "when an out-group I dislike does a bad thing its representative of the entire out-group and its intrinsic qualities." I think it's poisoning the well and prevents a good faith discussion.

I have nothing against you or Shinto.

I already knew many Christians don't agree with how to interpret Scriptures.

I have never EVER met a Christian who thinks the Bible contains errors. The Bible says all Scripture is inspired by God.

 

[Brinne]

I already knew many Christians don't agree with how to interpret Scriptures.

I have never EVER met a Christian who thinks the Bible contains errors. The Bible says all Scripture is inspired by God.

Well as the data shows they are out there. And I've also met some -- more liberal in their expression of their faith but all the same considered themselves Christians.

As I've said there's almost always diversity of opinion in large groups of people.

 

[firedragon]

Most Abrahamic sects , in fact every Christian and Muslim i met, declare their sacred text to be the word of God, inspired, or without error.

I think some Japanese folklore is ridiculous, and don't believe it is all inspired by Kami.

Shinto gives me, and everyone, the liberty to love, bless, and enshrine Kami, and practice Shinto, in a peaceful loving way, without having to believe in folklore.

It's what I've been repeatedly trying to get across to @firedragon in vain. He thinks some how the behaviors of Emperor Jimmu need to be defended. I don't even know if the stories about Jimmu are true.

Shinto is not founded by Jimmu, neither does Shinto declare Jimmu to be a messenger that I must obey, and Shinto existed before the Imperial dynasty.

The belief that the Emperor descended from Amaterasu Omikami, the Sun Goddess, is actually not a binding, infallible Doctrine, that you are required to believe , to be in good standing with Shinto Dogma/Religion.

I will say, it is the oldest surviving dynasty on earth, which could be a sign of Divine providence, but Shinto is not telling anyone they are required to believe in that tradition.

Shintoism invented suicide terrorism. Probably the most dangerous religion in the whole world to have ever existed. Psychopathic. Murderous. Thats using your own method.

 

[Spiderman]

Shintoism invented suicide terrorism. Probably the most dangerous religion in the whole world to have ever existed. Psychopathic. Murderous. Thats using your own method.

Shinto never invented suicide terrorism. Way to destroy your credibility for the fifth time in a day.

Kamikaze were targeting military targets. Terrorists target civilians.

Shinto didn't invent kamikaze. Human beings did that thousands of years after Shinto existed.

The Quran is believed to be the word of God and sanctions torture, extreme forms of bigotry, and murder. Therefore, that is a part of Islam.

There is no such text I must swallow to be a Shinto adherent.

All I have to do is love Kami and follow my conscience, and be a man of prayer and sacrifice, charity, and discipline.

Shinto doesn't teach that I must follow Doctrine, Scriptures, or judge and condemn people as being saved or going to hell.

Are you sure you want to lose another debate?