"Religious people are scared of hell; spiritual people have actually been there."

[Timothy Bryce]

"Religious people are scared of hell; spiritual people have actually been there."

I heard some woman say this at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting the other day. I have to say that it really resonated with me.

If heaven is a place on earth, hell certainly has a presence here too.

Most self proclaimed "religious" people who I've met, who seem to be paying lip service to the religion they were born into, don't seem to question their concept of spirituality in any analytical way and approach spirituality as if it is some kind of hobby or chore to avoid being burned for eternity. The idea of communicating with god or the universe or whatever as if it were a person sitting in front of you seems completely and utterly ridiculous.

On the other hand, most of my friends and like minded individuals have gone through some first world hell of their own making (as first world problems usually tend to be self-constructed) and we've all seemed to have had genuine spiritual experiences that involved some form of redemption from self-imposed suffering and connection with our surroundings; ultimately there seems to be a consensus that everything that we had gone through had happened for some divine reason (to allow us to experience some form of higher power) and that simply the fact that we are still alive and kicking indicates that there is some purpose for all of us - the fallen ones.

It seems to have a lot of substance to it than: "damn it! we're gonna be late for church!"

 

[jeager106]

A.A. and N.A. guy here.
I've heard that said in both fellowships.
A.A. and N.A. people HAVE been in hell.
Don't believe that?
Try being an alky and or addict and IF YOU SURVIVE you will
understand!

 

[Timothy Bryce]

A.A. and N.A. guy here.
I've heard that said in both fellowships.
A.A. and N.A. people HAVE been in hell.
Don't believe that?
Try being an alky and or addict and IF YOU SURVIVE you will
understand!

I have to start following you now. I'd be doing myself a disservice otherwise. Stay strong brother!

 

[jeager106]

I have to start following you now. I'd be doing myself a disservice otherwise. Stay strong brother!

We do draw from one another now don't we?
I don't wanna die like my parents did.

 

[allfoak]

Chapter 5 | Big Book of A.A. 2nd edition

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-- that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

We do draw from one another now don't we?
I don't wanna die like my parents did.

We do. I don't think it would work without that sense of community and connection. I'm definitely a rookie at this stuff however.

I'm also of the opinion that we're almost like a specific breed of people. Thoughtful, sensitive (almost to a fault) and had always held this overwhelming desire to completely transcend the confines of the ordinary human experience. Kind of a cool bunch as wanky as that might sound.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Chapter 5 | Big Book of A.A. 2nd edition

As I said above - I'm a rookie, a newcomer if you will, I'm still struggling with Step 1. - it's difficult to make it stick.

 

[jeager106]

We do. I don't think it would work without that sense of community and connection. I'm definitely a rookie at this stuff however.

I'm also of the opinion that we're almost like a specific breed of people. Thoughtful, sensitive (almost to a fault) and had always held this overwhelming desire to completely transcend the confines of the ordinary human experience. Kind of a cool bunch as wanky as that might sound.

Bro I totally agree. Wanky is as wanky does and I've met some real
wanky wankers but we still have a common bond.
If we yield, we DIE.
You and I have both been to hell and gotten a blessed road back
to a better place.
One little mental slip and it's right back into hell. Probably the last trip.

 

[jeager106]

Step one is simply the obvious acceptance step.
It's essential to ACCEPT that our lives have become unmanageable.
SURRENDER.
Necessary.
We are whipped.

 

[jeager106]

In my unique case I NEVER got arrested, lost a job, had bad credit,
etc. Thus my EGO told me I was o.k.
However I nearly lost my LIFE to the disease FOUR times.
I finally "got it" that one can loose a whole lot more than material
things.
I could have died with good credit, a good job, good education,
a bit of money, but been just as dead.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm not fond of the notion that suffering advances us spiritually. I think it usually does the opposite by focusing us on ourselves. But I have noticed that great suffering does seem to reduce or eliminate any concern one might have about hell -- at least for some people.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

If you need help and you don't happen to believe in a higher power, you still have options.

An Atheist's Guide to 12-Step Recovery | AA Agnostica

You can also find help through local athiest groups, and if you ask, you'll find something secular near you.

 

[jeager106]

I work a 12 step recovery program.
If I don't it's likely I'll die a miserable death.
I must often remind myself that other "normal" folks don't need to
WORK a 12 step recovery program.
Ergo those "others" are free to be horses patoots all the days of their lives'
living in oblivious bliss that they could self improve but without that
demons pitchfork up the poop shoot they have no reason at all to become
anything more than they are.
As for me.............?????????????????????????

I'd rather not be a horses patoot.

Members here exempt from those condemnations of mine.
After all if you are members here you are interested in the health of self.

 

[jeager106]

An Atheist's Guide to 12-Step Recovery | AA Agnostica

Thanks as I had no idea those groups existed. I actually read that literature and now have a
resource for people in recovery who struggle with the "God angle".
It's not my place to be God's representative anyway.

 

[Quintessence]

Well, glad it resonated with you. Depending on my mood, I either would have given her a blank stare or an irritated glower at her erroneous presumptuousness.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Religious people are scared of hell; spiritual people have actually been there."
I heard some woman say this at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting the other day. I have to say that it really resonated with me.
If heaven is a place on earth, hell certainly has a presence here too.
Most self proclaimed "religious" people who I've met, who seem to be paying lip service to the religion they were born into, don't seem to question their concept of spirituality in any analytical way and approach spirituality as if it is some kind of hobby or chore to avoid being burned for eternity. The idea of communicating with god or the universe or whatever as if it were a person sitting in front of you seems completely and utterly ridiculous.
On the other hand, most of my friends and like minded individuals have gone through some first world hell of their own making (as first world problems usually tend to be self-constructed) and we've all seemed to have had genuine spiritual experiences that involved some form of redemption from self-imposed suffering and connection with our surroundings; ultimately there seems to be a consensus that everything that we had gone through had happened for some divine reason (to allow us to experience some form of higher power) and that simply the fact that we are still alive and kicking indicates that there is some purpose for all of us - the fallen ones.
It seems to have a lot of substance to it than: "damn it! we're gonna be late for church!"

First of all, to me, to which 'hell ' are you referring, because there is a BIG difference between ' biblical hell ' and the religious-myth permanent hell teaching that is just taught as being the Bible's hell.

Does anyone righteous go to hell, because, to me, the day righteous Jesus' died Jesus went to hell.
- Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be biblical hell.
A permanent place can Not be unlocked. Jesus has the keys to unlock hell - Revelation 1:18
Jesus taught ' sleep ' (Not pain) in death - John 11:12-14 - then the dead know nothing.
Just as we are Not aware of the passing of time while asleep, the dead are un-aware of anything.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, the Bible's hell is just mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day, or Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth in righteousness.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15
So, there is nothing to fear, or be scared of biblical hell, because biblical hell is just the temporary grave.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not fond of the notion that suffering advances us spiritually. I think it usually does the opposite by focusing us on ourselves. But I have noticed that great suffering does seem to reduce or eliminate any concern one might have about hell -- at least for some people.

I don't think faithful Job found his suffering advancing him in a spiritual sense.
Job needed to be corrected.
Satan, on the other hand, challenges ALL of us besides Job.
The challenge is: touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God - Job 2:4-5

 

[omega2xx]

"Religious people are scared of hell; spiritual people have actually been there."

You finally got something right. Everyone should scared to death of hell and no one living has eve been there.

I heard some woman say this at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting the other day. I have to say that it really resonated with me.

If heaven is a place on earth, hell certainly has a presence here too.

Heaven by defintion is not on earth, and neither is hell.

Most self proclaimed "religious" people who I've met, who seem to be paying lip service to the religion they were born into, don't seem to question their concept of spirituality in any analytical way and approach spirituality as if it is some kind of hobby or chore to avoid being burned for eternity. The idea of communicating with god or the universe or whatever as if it were a person sitting in front of you seems completely and utterly ridiculous.

I doubt if you have met enough conservative Christians to know them well enough to make such a statement. If fact you have no way of knowing if they really were a Christian.

On the other hand, most of my friends and like minded individuals have gone through some first world hell of their own making (as first world problems usually tend to be self-constructed) and we've all seemed to have had genuine spiritual experiences that involved some form of redemption from self-imposed suffering and connection with our surroundings; ultimately there seems to be a consensus that everything that we had gone through had happened for some divine reason (to allow us to experience some form of higher power) and that simply the fact that we are still alive and kicking indicates that there is some purpose for all of us - the fallen ones.

What happens to non-believes is the result of living in a fallen world. What happens to believer is caused or allowed by God for a purpose.

It seems to have a lot of substance to it than: "damn it! we're gonna be late for church!"

For example?

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I'm not fond of the notion that suffering advances us spiritually. I think it usually does the opposite by focusing us on ourselves. But I have noticed that great suffering does seem to reduce or eliminate any concern one might have about hell -- at least for some people.

I disagree with the bold. I think, through common experiences, such as immense suffering of a similar nature, it allows individuals the opportunity to find or experience a connection with something greater than ourselves; and, if one happens to be extremely lucky, an experience of the full sweep of quantum consciousness and be able to see the illusory aspects of the ego.

So, it's kind of on the contrary.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Well, glad it resonated with you. Depending on my mood, I either would have given her a blank stare or an irritated glower at her erroneous presumptuousness.

But how can you know what she'd been through or how she'd been affected over the course of her life. Isn't that erroneous presumptuousness on your part?