Religious Tolerance -- Too much of a good thing?

[DreamQuickBook]

Jocose,

My Bible says we Christians should be able top judge where God's "determined will" is already outlined in the Bible.

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth, judge righteously, And plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Sabio

But it also says judge not. I'm confused.

 

[Melody]

Websters definition of respect:

Main Entry: 2respect
Function: transitive verb
1 a : to consider worthy of high regard : [size=-1]ESTEEM[/size] b : to refrain from interfering with

How can I hold in high regard what my faith believes to be false? Do I respect others rights to believe what they want? Of course....as long as they don't require me to believe in it or promote it.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

How can I hold in high regard what my faith believes to be false? Do I respect others rights to believe what they want? Of course....as long as they don't require me to believe in it or promote it.

That is the way I go about it. I disapprove of Christianity and Islam (as two examples). I would never, under any circumstance recommend it to anyone. However, I would never disrespect anyone because they happen to be Christian. I judge people based on their behaviors, not on what they call themselves or what worldview they've adopted.

 

[Melody]

But it also says judge not. I'm confused.

Many people are confused by this quote. Here's the complete verse in context:

[font=Arial, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."[/font]
Matthew 7:1-5

This verse dealt with hypocritical judging. Making a judgment against someone for something you also are guilty of. For example, saying someone lies when you also lie. All this verse means is that before you judge others, correct your own sin first so that you can clearly see and help those who also sin.

 

[Sabio]

But it also says judge not. I'm confused.

Jocose,

We are not supposed to "judge" whether a person has "salvation" or not, this judgement is God's alone.

But we are supposed to be able to judge "acts" that we see before us using the Bible as a guildline (God's determined will). Otherwise how could we conduct business in our legal system?

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

But we are supposed to be able to judge "acts" that we see before us using the Bible as a guildline (God's determined will). Otherwise how could we conduct business in our legal system?

Sabio

Wait. Christians tell me I'm going to burn in hell all the time because I don't worship Jesus Christ.

 

[Sabio]

Wait. Christians tell me I'm going to burn in hell all the time because I don't worship Jesus Christ.

Have they provided you with a scriptural reference to back up this statement?

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Have they provided you with a scriptural reference to back up this statement?

Sabio

Of course. They say that if you are not a Christian you burn in hell. The Bible says that clearly. Now, you are telling me that you are not allowed to judge whether or not someone is saved, but, insofar as the Bible says that if you are not a Christian you are not saved, you can then make that judgment? Really, that is a dizzying argument.

 

[Sabio]

Of course. They say that if you are not a Christian you burn in hell. The Bible says that clearly. Now, you are telling me that you are not allowed to judge whether or not someone is saved, but, insofar as the Bible says that if you are not a Christian you are not saved, you can then make that judgment? Really, that is a dizzying argument.

Jocose,

Show me the specific verse from the Bible that says you will burn in hell if you are not a Christian and I can address it.

I cannot judge your heart, I cannot tell you whether you personally are saved, this is only known by you and God.

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Jocose,

Show me the specific verse from the Bible that says you will burn in hell if you are not a Christian and I can address it.

I cannot judge your heart, I cannot tell you whether you personally are saved, this is only known by you and God.

Sabio

I can't recall the verse, but the Gospels of Jesus Christ clearly show that the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. It also shows that those who do not go to heaven go to hell. So... what conclusion are Christians to come to?

 

[Sabio]

I can't recall the verse, but the Gospels of Jesus Christ clearly show that the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. It also shows that those who do not go to heaven go to hell. So... what conclusion are Christians to come to?

Jocose,

My Bible says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. - Romans 3:20, 23" that includes Jocose and Sabio too!

But it also says..."For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:21, 23"

So sin leads to death, "but" God's gift (to Jocose and Sabio) is eternal life through Jesus Christ...

Nothing could be more simple to understand.

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

And the conclusion none the more obvious. Christians judge that I am going to burn in hell for all eternity.

Don't worry, I don't mind. I'm just saying, it says not to judge and to judge at the same time. It's very confusing.

 

[Sabio]

And the conclusion none the more obvious. Christians judge that I am going to burn in hell for all eternity.

Don't worry, I don't mind. I'm just saying, it says not to judge and to judge at the same time. It's very confusing.

Well I can't speak for all Christians, but I'm hoping that you will accept the "free gift" rather than chance what you believe is the obvious conclusion.

Sabio

 

[michel]

And what does judge not mean? Does that mean that religious truth is relative? If you, as a Christian, are not allowed to make judgments about moral questions.

It means what it says; I am not, as a Christian, to judge others - that is God's 'job'. The same message is repeated in Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

You can look here:- http://www.catholic-pages.com/prayers/263.asp for the full explanation.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Well I can't speak for all Christians, but I'm hoping that you will accept the "free gift" rather than chance what you believe is the obvious conclusion.

Sabio

lol It'll never happen. I grew up Christian. My parents do missions work, amongst other things. My grandfather is a Baptist preacher. I've known many great Christians and I had even made plans to go to a Seminary in California. My original plan was to get a doctorate in the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics. However, I changed my mind based on experience, not ideology. So, I'd have to have a massive change in experience in order to go back down that road. Once you completely lose your faith in a God, it's impossible to go back. I spend a great deal of time and effort proselytizing against Christianity. Christians are very dedicated to spreading Christianity. As an opponant of Christianity, I have to be that much more dedicated to stopping the spread of Christianity - after all, number are not on my side. :162:

 

[michel]

lol It'll never happen. I grew up Christian. My parents do missions work, amongst other things. My grandfather is a Baptist preacher. I've known many great Christians and I had even made plans to go to a Seminary in California. My original plan was to get a doctorate in the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics. However, I changed my mind based on experience, not ideology. So, I'd have to have a massive change in experience in order to go back down that road. Once you completely lose your faith in a God, it's impossible to go back. I spend a great deal of time and effort proselytizing against Christianity. Christians are very dedicated to spreading Christianity. As an opponant of Christianity, I have to be that much more dedicated to stopping the spread of Christianity - after all, number are not on my side. :162:

Just what made you decide to be an' opponent of Christianity'?

 

[Sabio]

lol It'll never happen. I grew up Christian. My parents do missions work, amongst other things. My grandfather is a Baptist preacher. I've known many great Christians and I had even made plans to go to a Seminary in California. My original plan was to get a doctorate in the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics. However, I changed my mind based on experience, not ideology. So, I'd have to have a massive change in experience in order to go back down that road. Once you completely lose your faith in a God, it's impossible to go back. I spend a great deal of time and effort proselytizing against Christianity. Christians are very dedicated to spreading Christianity. As an opponant of Christianity, I have to be that much more dedicated to stopping the spread of Christianity - after all, number are not on my side. :162:

So reading into this a little, can I assume that you grew up hearing that you would go to a graphically described "Hell" if you did not do "thus and so"? In other words did you grow up under the "threat" of God, rather than the "Love" of God"?

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Just what made you decide to be an' opponent of Christianity'?

It's effect on those I love. The events that lead up to that point are very personal and so are my reasons; but it is fair to say that the passion Christians feel toward spreading Christianity is equal to my passion for stopping it. I don't think Christians are "bad people" or anything, but I believe Christianity, as a religion, spreads damaging ideologies. I'm sure you have read the complaints of Bertrand Russell, Ayn Rand, David Hume, Thomas Paine and Friedrich Nietzsche. My complaints are much the same as theirs. It does no good, however, for us to try to convert each other. Once someone becomes a Christian, I do very little to try to counter that; I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques. Again, once you've established yourself in a religion, I won't try to convince you that you are wrong. I will only put my world view out there for you to see. If you like it more, then you'll take the rest of the steps.

So reading into this a little, can I assume that you grew up hearing that you would go to a graphically described "Hell" if you did not do "thus and so"? In other words did you grow up under the "threat" of God, rather than the "Love" of God"?

Sabio

No. My parents and grandparents rarely ever talked about hell. In fact, most of their focus was on Love. My Grandfather, well, he is a Southern Baptist Preacher... so I'll let you figure that one out. He is a great man though.

Also, let me say, I have two of the most loving parents in all the world. There isn't anything that they wouldn't do for me and we are the best of friends. There is no animosity there.

 

[Sabio]

It's effect on those I love. The events that lead up to that point are very personal and so are my reasons; but it is fair to say that the passion Christians feel toward spreading Christianity is equal to my passion for stopping it. I don't think Christians are "bad people" or anything, but I believe Christianity, as a religion, spreads damaging ideologies. I'm sure you have read the complaints of Bertrand Russell, Ayn Rand, David Hume, Thomas Paine and Friedrich Nietzsche. My complaints are much the same as theirs. It does no good, however, for us to try to convert each other. Once someone becomes a Christian, I do very little to try to counter that; I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques. Again, once you've established yourself in a religion, I won't try to convince you that you are wrong. I will only put my world view out there for you to see. If you like it more, then you'll take the rest of the steps.



No. My parents and grandparents rarely ever talked about hell. In fact, most of their focus was on Love. My Grandfather, well, he is a Southern Baptist Preacher... so I'll let you figure that one out. He is a great man though.

Also, let me say, I have two of the most loving parents in all the world. There isn't anything that they wouldn't do for me and we are the best of friends. There is no animosity there.

So your problem with Christianity is the way that it is taught and spread?

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

So your problem with Christianity is the way that it is taught and spread?

Sabio

No. It's the theology. The Gospel. The Teachings of Paul. The Teachings of Christ. Not to mention the old testiment.

But look; you are solid in your faith and I have no interest in questioning it. It is not my place.