Religious Tolerance -- Too much of a good thing?

[michel]

It's effect on those I love. The events that lead up to that point are very personal and so are my reasons; but it is fair to say that the passion Christians feel toward spreading Christianity is equal to my passion for stopping it. I don't think Christians are "bad people" or anything, but I believe Christianity, as a religion, spreads damaging ideologies. I'm sure you have read the complaints of Bertrand Russell, Ayn Rand, David Hume, Thomas Paine and Friedrich Nietzsche. My complaints are much the same as theirs. It does no good, however, for us to try to convert each other. Once someone becomes a Christian, I do very little to try to counter that; I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques. Again, once you've established yourself in a religion, I won't try to convince you that you are wrong. I will only put my world view out there for you to see. If you like it more, then you'll take the rest of the steps.



No. My parents and grandparents rarely ever talked about hell. In fact, most of their focus was on Love. My Grandfather, well, he is a Southern Baptist Preacher... so I'll let you figure that one out. He is a great man though.

Also, let me say, I have two of the most loving parents in all the world. There isn't anything that they wouldn't do for me and we are the best of friends. There is no animosity there.

I find it sad that you have such a jaded opinion of all Christians and your"I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques." reeks of the intollerance and small mindedness that you seem to be so proactively trying to 'Save ' people from. I am sorry, I don't understand your problem; but I guess if it makes you feel happy, who am I to try and dissuade you - not that it is even my duty...........

 

[DreamQuickBook]

I find it sad that you have such a jaded opinion of all Christians and your"I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques." reeks of the intollerance and small mindedness that you seem to be so proactively trying to 'Save ' people from. I am sorry, I don't understand your problem; but I guess if it makes you feel happy, who am I to try and dissuade you - not that it is even my duty...........

I'm extremely tolerant of people of all people. I do not judge anyone based on their religion. I cannot help it if it has been my experience that Christianity is a negative influence on people. Besides, why should it be surprising that people try to work against something other people are working towards? If the Gospels are true, then it is worth working for, is it not? But if they are false, then are not they worth working against?

 

[DreamQuickBook]

I want to be very clear, so that there is no misunderstanding, that I do not think Christians are bad people. I am not arguing against Christians. But Christianity is a set of ideas; and ideas can be argued for and argued against, depending or whether you believe they are true or false. Christians believe their ideas are true. I believe they are false. In fairness, why should I not have the same right to speak of the truth as I have experienced? Is going out and "spreading the truth" only allowed if you are a Christian?

 

[Sabio]

I'm extremely tolerant of people of all people. I do not judge anyone based on their religion. I cannot help it if it has been my experience that Christianity is a negative influence on people. Besides, why should it be surprising that people try to work against something other people are working towards? If the Gospels are true, then it is worth working for, is it not? But if they are false, then are not they worth working against?

Jocose,

I think what I hear Michel saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your religion should stand on its own merits rather than on the weaknesses of another religion. IE: why is Satan (for you) good rather then why is Jesus bad (for me)...

Sabio

 

[michel]

I'm extremely tolerant of people of all people. I do not judge anyone based on their religion. I cannot help it if it has been my experience that Christianity is a negative influence on people. Besides, why should it be surprising that people try to work against something other people are working towards? If the Gospels are true, then it is worth working for, is it not? But if they are false, then are not they worth working against?[/QUOTE]

Well, you have met one in me.

Ah, so you devote your life to help Christians fine tune their ability to try and redress all that you preach againt their faith.?

I'm sorry if I find that hard to believe - and of course I am falling into the trap of being judgemental- - it just sounds to me as if you have a personal cruisade against Christians that is not explained by mere" Christianity is a negative influence on people."
Who are you to judge?

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Jocose,

I think what I hear Michel saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your religion should stand on its own merits rather than on the weaknesses of another religion. IE: why is Satan (for you) good rather then why is Jesus bad (for me)...

Sabio

Oh, I see. Well, it's a simple matter of cause and effect, in my opinion. If Christians were not dedicating themselves to spreading their ideology, there would be no one who needed to stand in their way. In other words, because there is an argument being made that Jesus Christ is the one true God and that non-believers go to hell, the reaction to that argument is that Jesus Christ is not the one true God and nothing bad will happen to non-believers. The belief that Jesus Christ was not the one true God and that nothing bad will happen to non-believers is a part of my belief system. I offer an alternative to Christianity, if someone asks. But no one asks non-believers if they want to hear "the word of god".

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Ah, so you devote your life to help Christians fine tune their ability to try and redress all that you preach againt their faith.?

I'm sorry if I find that hard to believe - and of course I am falling into the trap of being judgemental- - it just sounds to me as if you have a personal cruisade against Christians that is not explained by mere" Christianity is a negative influence on people."
Who are you to judge?

I'm confused. I'm not trying to help Christians fine tune anything. I'm not concerned about Christians. I don't have personal crusade against Christians. I have a personal crusade against Christianity (along with other religions with similar ideologies). I do not understand why it is wrong to offer a defense against the idea that Christians have the one true path. It's the ideas I am arguing against, nothing more.

 

[michel]

I'm confused. I'm not trying to help Christians fine tune anything. I'm not concerned about Christians. I don't have personal crusade against Christians. I have a personal crusade against Christianity (along with other religions with similar ideologies). I do not understand why it is wrong to offer a defense against the idea that Christians have the one true path. It's the ideas I am arguing against, nothing more.

You are concerned about Christians, by the very act of " I simply try to "save" non-Christians from being converted by teaching them the approaches and arguments Christians use; their methods and techniques. " Ergo you think of Christianity as "spreads damaging ideologies" (your words)- therefore you must believe "that those who try to convert others to Christianity are looking to spread damaging Ideologies" - I do not say that Christianity is 'the one true path' - it is, for me but that is where it ends - if someone says to me, I like the sound of yourreligion, I'll try and answer questions- but I am not exactly working on a commission basis!- and I can sincerely say that all the Christians I know here believe the same.

 

[Sabio]

Oh, I see. Well, it's a simple matter of cause and effect, in my opinion. If Christians were not dedicating themselves to spreading their ideology, there would be no one who needed to stand in their way. In other words, because there is an argument being made that Jesus Christ is the one true God and that non-believers go to hell, the reaction to that argument is that Jesus Christ is not the one true God and nothing bad will happen to non-believers. The belief that Jesus Christ was not the one true God and that nothing bad will happen to non-believers is a part of my belief system. I offer an alternative to Christianity, if someone asks. But no one asks non-believers if they want to hear "the word of god".

Jocose,

I do understand what you are saying, and I'm not at all suprised by the theology of Satan, it has and always will be to stand in the way of the Gospel of Jesus, and this is what you are stating as your intent.

I hear you saying that your religion is aimed at the "Christian ideology" and not "Christians", but understand that when you try and stand in the way of Jesus, you are taking us all on, because the message and the messenger are all one in the same.

Satan opposed God and lost his high place in heaven. Then he tried to temp and bribe Jesus into worshipping him instead of God, this did not work either. Next Satan assumed victory when Jesus went to the cross, but this backfired as well, and his defeat was final at the hands of Jesus.

The only thing Satan has to look forward to is the time of the Antichrist, when Satan is allowed to temp man one last time.

This is my world view, I'm praying for your release Jocose.

Sabio

Sabio

 

[michel]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Sabio again:banghead3

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Jocose,

I do understand what you are saying, and I'm not at all suprised by the theology of Satan, it has and always will be to stand in the way of the Gospel of Jesus, and this is what you are stating as your intent.

I hear you saying that your religion is aimed at the "Christian ideology" and not "Christians", but understand that when you try and stand in the way of Jesus, you are taking us all on, because the message and the messenger are all one in the same.

I understand. If that is the reality, than so be it. However, I have no interest in the old ways of dealing with religious difference. Unlike Mainstream religion, I am not, nor have ever been, interested in using violence to further my religious beliefs. Nor would I ever seek to use government or force. Nor would I seek to coerce in anyway.

No. I am interested in the ideas and theologies. I am interested in putting forth an alternative to the ideas and theologies that have dominated Western Culture for the last thousand years. I have many Christians friends and family and I have no desire to see any harm or inconvenience come to them. However, if anyone thinks that I should be silenced from opposing a set of ideas I see as being terribly wrong, then they have another thing coming. However, I am glad that most Christians are perfectly happy with the idea of going out and preaching the word and me going out and trying to stop them. Obviously I am outnumbered and ineffective. It's just a different set of ideas. Nothing sinister.

Satan opposed God and lost his high place in heaven. Then he tried to temp and bribe Jesus into worshipping him instead of God, this did not work either. Next Satan assumed victory when Jesus went to the cross, but this backfired as well, and his defeat was final at the hands of Jesus.

The only thing Satan has to look forward to is the time of the Antichrist, when Satan is allowed to temp man one last time.

Believe me, I'm not really looking forward to the Anti-Christ. lol According the Christian Mythology he will be unifying the whole world under one banner and basically forming a powerful one world government, snuffing out natural liberties all together. This is something I dreed.

Christians and Satanists have opposing world views. That is just the nature of things.

I find it VERY hypocritical that Christians who try to save the world from Satan, would tell a Satanist that he is being intolerant and small minded when trying to do the same thing.

 

[Melody]

I want to be very clear, so that there is no misunderstanding, that I do not think Christians are bad people. I am not arguing against Christians. But Christianity is a set of ideas; and ideas can be argued for and argued against, depending or whether you believe they are true or false. Christians believe their ideas are true. I believe they are false. In fairness, why should I not have the same right to speak of the truth as I have experienced? Is going out and "spreading the truth" only allowed if you are a Christian?

Jocose,
One wonders why you feel the need to "warn" others away from Christianity. Why not promote your own beliefs instead of bashing another belief system?

 

[Sabio]

I find it VERY hypocritical that Christians who try to save the world from Satan, would tell a Satanist that he is being intolerant and small minded when trying to do the same thing.

I don't think I said anything about you being intolerant or small minded? I thought we were having a rather good discussion!

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Jocose,
One wonders why you feel the need to "warn" others away from Christianity. Why not promote your own beliefs instead of bashing another belief system?

If someone asks me, I will promote my own religious beliefs. But no one asks the non-believer if he wants to be preached to about Jesus Christ. I do not try to convince Christians to abandon their religion. But my beliefs are in opposition to Christianity...what good does it do me, if the Christian world view spreads and my world view is suffocated? Christians go around all the time warning people about Satan. So why should I not go around and warn people about Christ?

I don't think I said anything about you being intolerant or small minded? I thought we were having a rather good discussion!

Sabio
Reply With Quote

No. Michel did. I'm sorry. that was not in reference to you. Again, this is such a personal topic... I very much want to avoid stirring up too much emotion.

 

[Sabio]

If someone asks me, I will promote my own religious beliefs. But no one asks the non-believer if he wants to be preached to about Jesus Christ. I do not try to convince Christians to abandon their religion. But my beliefs are in opposition to Christianity...what good does it do me, if the Christian world view spreads and my world view is suffocated? Christians go around all the time warning people about Satan. So why should I not go around and warn people about Christ?



No. Michel did. I'm sorry. that was not in reference to you. Again, this is such a personal topic... I very much want to avoid stirring up too much emotion.

I can relate, my salvation in Jesus feels like I've got a treasure chest full of gold and I want to open it up and tell everyone to just dig in and take as much as you need, because He will supply every need.

Sabio

 

[michel]

If someone asks me, I will promote my own religious beliefs. But no one asks the non-believer if he wants to be preached to about Jesus Christ. I do not try to convince Christians to abandon their religion. But my beliefs are in opposition to Christianity...what good does it do me, if the Christian world view spreads and my world view is suffocated? Christians go around all the time warning people about Satan. So why should I not go around and warn people about Christ?



No. Michel did. I'm sorry. that was not in reference to you. Again, this is such a personal topic... I very much want to avoid stirring up too much emotion.

a) I have never warned anyone in my life about Satan - so your comment above is innacurate.
b)I think your judgement is slightly impaired if you claim to want to avoid stiring up emotion, by saying that you go around schooling people on how to ward of Christianity.

If that is your idea of wanting to avoid stiring up emotions, I wouldn't like you to see you wanting to stir up bad feeling..................

 

[DreamQuickBook]

a) I have never warned anyone in my life about Satan - so your comment above is innacurate.
b)I think your judgement is slightly impaired if you claim to want to avoid stiring up emotion, by saying that you go around schooling people on how to ward of Christianity.

If that is your idea of wanting to avoid stiring up emotions, I wouldn't like you to see you wanting to stir up bad feeling..................

Well, I typically don't mention it; but the conversation was going quite well. I felt... at liberty. Of course, I will be more careful in the future. Again, I am merely fighting against an ideology/worldview/paradigm and not the people that buy into it. I would never use force or violence of any kind. I don't even enjoy emotional debates about it. So, that being the case. I will drop it. It is not my intention to frustrate anyone.

 

[michel]

Well, I typically don't mention it; but the conversation was going quite well. I felt... at liberty. Of course, I will be more careful in the future. Again, I am merely fighting against an ideology/worldview/paradigm and not the people that buy into it. I would never use force or violence of any kind. I don't even enjoy emotional debates about it. So, that being the case. I will drop it. It is not my intention to frustrate anyone.

No, you don't need to stop on my account, but I might point out that, knowing I am a Christian, you tell me inthe following words ;

Quote " I spend a great deal of time and effort proselytizing against Christianity. Christians are very dedicated to spreading Christianity. As an opponant of Christianity, I have to be that much more dedicated to stopping the spread of Christianity "

You then say " I don't even enjoy emotional debates about it."

a) I have never said anything detrimental about Satanists

b) you openly admit to doing your best to "stopping the spread of Christianity"

You expect not to stir up emotions, come on - you can't be that naive - I honestly gave you the benefit of taking you at face value. Until this Evening (here), you have been 'amiable' - tonight you tell us how much you do to try to stop the spread of Christianity.

Let's forget this conversation, and pretend it never happened; maybe you are tired, maybe I'm oversensitive - whatever.... no hard feelings.

 

[Melody]

Jocose,

Christians don't go around trying to convince people *not* to be <name your religion> as much as we try to show them about our loving God and salvation that can be found through Christ. If you were acting equally, you would not be trying to convince people *not* to be Christian, but rather showing them why your beliefs are better. One assumes you believe they are and have reasons?

Is this animosity only towards Christianity or is it towards anyone who believes in God?

 

[Green Gaia]

From my viewpoint, religious tolerance (from all religions towards all other religions) is nothing but a good thing and absolutely necessary if there is ever going to be peace in the world.