Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[BilliardsBall]

This so-called special knowledge is not from the top of my head but from the Tanach if you read Numbers 12:6. "When a prophet of the Lord arises among you I'll make Myself known to him in a vision; I'll speak to him in a dream." First, prophetical language is metaphorical; then, given in a vision or dream, doubles the metaphorical reason. And my expertise in the effects of catalepsy comes from 30 years of hospital working and contact with death.

Regarding the sun, to be taken literally will cause only atheistic laughs at Theism. Any reader of Physics know a little of the drastic consequences of a stop of the sun or of earth for that matter. Then, you don't need that; the text itself in the Tanach explains that the ten steps moving back in the dial of Ahaz were an analogy to the recollection of ten years before when 185,000 Assyrians besieging Jerusalem died of probably a bubonic plague if you read II Kings 20 and Isaiah 37 and 38. Just before the coming of the Assyrians to attack Judah, King Hezekiah had deviated the water canals from outside to inside the walled city and left the outside of the city completely dry where the Assyrian armies
encamped without water and with high infestation of mice which contributed for the bubonic plague which is highly caused by dehydration and mice. That's the event that caused the mind of king Hezekiah to go ten steps/years back in time to understand that if HaShem did that, what was the malady of Hezekiah that HaShem could not heal?

Now, as Abraham and Sarai age (100 and 90) were concerned, it was part of ancient culture to honor chieftains with high age as an embellishment of their greatness. Probably, if you ask me, it is a safe assumption to think that Abraham was 60 and Sarai 50. Evidence of the fact is that after Sarah died, Abraham took another wife called Ketura who bore him 5 more children. At 100+!!! Not likely! Perhaps at 65. (Genesis 25:1,2)

Ben,

Are you not aware that other prophets in Tanakh were spoken to by God directly? You don't really think that the prophets only encountered God in dreams, do you? Of course not. Because when Moses was pressed against the sea and asked God to assist, Moses wasn't asleep at the time.

I don't care if atheists laugh at the Bible. God in Heaven laughs at the wicked who assemble against His Messiah.

Sarai laughed in disbelief re: having a child at an advanced age, but she's not the only mother who received a miracle child.

I would appreciate it if you would stop defending all your statements with "Tanakh, Tanakh!" if you also disbelieve Tanakh. Clearly, you disbelieve that the God who made all is sovereign over creation, physics--and atheist laughter.

 

[metis]

Testable fact. The Bible's truth claims may be tested. Once tested, verified, we have left assumptions behind...

Absolutely false, and all you have done is to fabricate a story that doesn't even stand the test of being logical, let alone being theological.

For example, please show us "testable" evidence that there are not multiple deities instead of just one.

BTW, all religions claim that some of their miracles were seen by eyewitnesses, so why don't you believe in all religions?

 

[metis]

Unfortunately for our conversations, however, you are making frequent assumptions, like "eyewitnesses differ in testimony in the Bible, so the Bible must be invalid."

Lie #1.

Assumption 1: Eyewitnesses should collude until they agree 100%

Lie #2.

Assumption 2: All of the eyewitnesses are wrong, where one or more of them could be true and a differing eyewitness could be false

Lie #3-- you're out!

I never made any of the above claims. I never claimed the Bible is "invalid". I never claimed all the witnesses had to agree 100%.

What you are conflating is that I did say that there are some "variations" within the scriptural accounts that cannot be reconciled because they are polar opposites, therefore one simply cannot logically conclude that the scriptures are inerrant (i.e. without any errors).

 

[BilliardsBall]

How is what the Bible Claims about being the only path to eternal life verifiable and testable?

Great question! How could we eliminate other faiths, and affirm the Bible faith?

1. We can find untruths in other religions. For example, in the world of Muhammed's day, there were no Arabic terms for linear time. So Muhammed mixed times in his mind. Therefore, when he retold the story of Moses before Pharaoh, Pharoah threatens Moses and Aaron with crucifixion. We know crucifixion is a Roman invention that came 1,000 years and more after the times of Moses.

2. We can test and prove the scriptures to our satisfaction via an exploration of fulfilled prophecy. I have many, many, many reasons to trust the scriptures and Jesus as authoritative.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Absolutely false, and all you have done is to fabricate a story that doesn't even stand the test of being logical, let alone being theological.

For example, please show us "testable" evidence that there are not multiple deities instead of just one.

BTW, all religions claim that some of their miracles were seen by eyewitnesses, so why don't you believe in all religions?

You speak as though the Bible contains thousands of tests to match each and all of its thousands of claims. It does not. Indeed, we usually find Jesus Christ commanding, not theorizing. We find God revelating, not justifying.

But once I was able to test for myself that God is revelatory to seeking Him, and once I was able to test for myself that the Bible accurately predicted the future numerous times, the case was settled.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Lie #1.

Lie #2.

Lie #3-- you're out!

I never made any of the above claims. I never claimed the Bible is "invalid". I never claimed all the witnesses had to agree 100%.

What you are conflating is that I did say that there are some "variations" within the scriptural accounts that cannot be reconciled because they are polar opposites, therefore one simply cannot logically conclude that the scriptures are inerrant (i.e. without any errors).

Okay--we can go with what you stated/restated above.

Will you or will you not respond to the fact that jurisprudence holds identical eyewitness testimonies as suspect and colluding?

Will you or will you not admit that variations between two eyewitness accounts does not prove the eyewitnesses have made mistakes (different perspectives may both be simultaneously true)?

 

[allfoak]

What experiences? I assume you didn't experience Jesus rising from the dead.

This is my experience.
Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to bear!"

And this is the goal.
Gospel of Philip
"Those who say that first they shall die and (then) they shall arise are confused. If they do not first receive the resurrection (while) they live, they will not receive anything (when) they die"

 

[CG Didymus]

I think we've been down this road. No hoax or lies, rather the use of metaphor to convey spiritual meanings as Christ did.

So lets consider again Jesus physical ascension through the stratosphere. The escape velocity required for a human body to escape the earths atmosphere....over 25,000 miles per hour. Jesus body would have to be very special not to break up under those conditions.

The escape velocity from Earth is about 11.186 km/s (6.951 mi/s; 40,270 km/h; 25,020 mph) at the surface

Escape velocity - Wikipedia

Once freed from the earth limitation of gravity, where to from heaven. When I was growing up alpha Centauri was considered the nearest star being over 4.2 light years.

Alpha Centauri - Wikipedia

That means travelling 4.2 years at the speed of light. That is 4.2 years travelling at nearly 180,000 miles per hour to make it to this start system.

Speed of light - Wikipedia

What if heaven is elsewhere?

When a Christian says that the NT is the "Word of God" and uses it to prove Jesus is God, prove there is a Satan and a literal hell, that there is a heaven and there is a resurrection of the dead, they are not picking up on what the Baha'i Faith claims... that it's metaphor. Someone is lying, confused, or believing false information. But when the resurrected Jesus is presented as part of the historical, supposed accurate, reporting of actual events, then they are lying or telling the truth. They were not speaking in metaphors. They did not go from talking about literal events, the trial and crucifixion of Jesus, to something symbolic. They speak as if it really happened.

Where do you come up with these things? Escape velocity? I hope Abdu'l Baha' didn't say that. Jesus, to the Christian, is God. He goes in and out of the material world and spiritual world... I guess a different dimension. I don't know. Where is your Baha'i afterlife realm? Is it past Alpha Centauri or in some spiritual plane?

But you know what, Christians had it easy. All they had to do is somehow reconcile the Hebrew Scriptures with their NT. For example, Christians needed Satan the devil to be a bigger player in the Hebrew Bible. They found him in the serpent in Eden. They found him as "Lucifer" in Isaiah. They made verses about the Prince and King of Tyre really, in a symbolic way, about Satan.

Now for you Bahai's, you have to reconcile every major religion that has ever been. Good luck, because they all teach significantly different things. You can make some of them "symbolic". You can say some were man's misinterpretations getting mixed in. But it's a stretch to say all religions had one God as the author.

To me, the most sensible answer is that different people had different ideas on what was the spiritual realty. Some had many gods, some one main god, some had underworlds, some had god-like prophets. But, they were all tied in closely with the people and culture they evolved from. Baha'is evolved much more closely with Islam. You have very little in common with Buddhism and Hinduism

Christianity is out there somewhere way different. They think all other religions are totally false. They think without Jesus everybody is going to die in their sins and go to hell. They think even Judaism is off. Why, because they take their Scriptures too literal. They don't believe all the "prophecies" that point to Jesus. God told the Jews to keep His Laws and Christians tell them to forget the Law and to "believe" in Jesus and get "saved".

Wait, that sounds a lot like what you're trying to tell Christians. Yes, that all they think is true is wrong. They're taking things way too literal. Can't they see? They don't even understand their own Scriptures. If they truly believed and understood the prophecies, they would see that Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. And, they'd also see that their religion is only one of many "true" religions from God. Strange, taking God's Word too literal? Doesn't God say what He means?

 

[Cephus]

This is my experience.
Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to bear!"

And this is the goal.
Gospel of Philip
"Those who say that first they shall die and (then) they shall arise are confused. If they do not first receive the resurrection (while) they live, they will not receive anything (when) they die"

No, that's your BELIEF, not your EXPERIENCE. An experience is something that demonstrably happens to you, not something you read in a book of mythology.

 

[allfoak]

No, that's your BELIEF, not your EXPERIENCE. An experience is something that demonstrably happens to you, not something you read in a book of mythology.

You do not understand what it is that I posted.
And that is fine but your criticism is based in ignorance I'm afraid. I am unfortunately unable to do anything about that.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, Are you not aware that other prophets in Tanakh were spoken to by God directly? You don't really think that the prophets only encountered God in dreams, do you? Of course not. Because when Moses was pressed against the sea and asked God to assist, Moses wasn't asleep at the time.

I don't care if atheists laugh at the Bible. God in Heaven laughs at the wicked who assemble against His Messiah. Sarai laughed in disbelief re: having a child at an advanced age, but she's not the only mother who received a miracle child.

I would appreciate it if you would stop defending all your statements with "Tanakh, Tanakh!" if you also disbelieve Tanakh. Clearly, you disbelieve that the God who made all is sovereign over creation, physics--and atheist laughter.

I am aware that the Lord would reveal Himself only through dreams and visions. What you are asking me is if I am aware that God was a liar when He said what he said in Numbers 12:6. Let God be truthful and every man a liar. Yes, I don't need to think; I know that the prophets dialogued with God only in their dreams and visions. Moses' request of assistance at the crossing of the sea was a prayer; a very short prayer. There was no dialogue between Moses and God. Indeed, metaphorically, God in heaven laughs at the wicked who assemble against His Messiah. Who is God's Messiah? If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

I wish you had been present when Sarah laughed at the news that she would have a child a year from that day. She would have asked you, "What are you talking about!" She would not understand your question. Do you know why? Because she was not the one who was dreaming but Abraham. Of course, Abraham told her of his dream and she had from that moment on, her faith activated in that sense. And she had Isaac because she trusted the Lord. How would you feel if I said the same about you and your NT? At least, I am using the Tanach because it was the gospel of Jesus and of all Jews. Do you have any idea why you use the Tanach sometimes? To interpolate the church of Paul into it which is an act of Replacement Theology.

 

[metis]

Okay--we can go with what you stated/restated above.

Will you or will you not respond to the fact that jurisprudence holds identical eyewitness testimonies as suspect and colluding?

Will you or will you not admit that variations between two eyewitness accounts does not prove the eyewitnesses have made mistakes (different perspectives may both be simultaneously true)?

I'm not going to go through this all over again, especially since you have again misrepresented what I actually posted. Instead of apologizing, all you do is to come back with questions I have already answered and have done so several times with you lately.

 

[leibowde84]

This is my experience.
Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to bear!"

And this is the goal.
Gospel of Philip
"Those who say that first they shall die and (then) they shall arise are confused. If they do not first receive the resurrection (while) they live, they will not receive anything (when) they die"

Why does this support your belief?

 

[omega2xx]

Thank you for you posts. I am a Baha'i and so believe in the same God, Jesus, and Bible as the Christians. I also have a science and a medical degree so reconciling faith and science is important. I believe the resurrection of Christ to be a spiritual not literal event. There are major problems from the perspective of reason, science, and scripture if it is physical from my perspective. However I realise how important this belief is to Christians and this thread is really a chance for those that are interested to explore different perspectives other than the mainstream Christian view.

Why do you think the resurrection of Jesus is spiritual event? If you do, you don't believe in the God of the Bible. Tell me what is impossible for an omnipotent God?

 

[omega2xx]

That's exactly what I do; I study both if you want to check me. That's precisely what "Jews-for-Jesus" and any other Jew lack as an evidence of their fall into the realm of Christianity: Knowledge of both Tanach and the NT. Hence the reason for their fall.

The difference3 is I look for trutn in both, you look for errors in the NT. You only read the NT, you do not study it.

 

[leibowde84]

The difference3 is I look for trutn in both, you look for errors in the NT. You only read the NT, you do not study it.

Studying certainly includes being skeptical and looking for errors. So, what do you mean by this?

 

[leibowde84]

1. We can find untruths in other religions. For example, in the world of Muhammed's day, there were no Arabic terms for linear time. So Muhammed mixed times in his mind. Therefore, when he retold the story of Moses before Pharaoh, Pharoah threatens Moses and Aaron with crucifixion. We know crucifixion is a Roman invention that came 1,000 years and more after the times of Moses.

Isn't this merely assuming that one religion is correct and the others are not? That has nothing to do with evidence and testability. It is basing an argument on an unsubstantiated premise.

2. We can test and prove the scriptures to our satisfaction via an exploration of fulfilled prophecy. I have many, many, many reasons to trust the scriptures and Jesus as authoritative.

What prophecies convince you so completely?

 

[Ben Avraham]

The difference3 is I look for trutn in both, you look for errors in the NT. You only read the NT, you do not study it.

The truth is one, just as God is One and the Only One. "Echad veYahid." I can't look for the truth in the Tanach and then think that probably it is in the NT! I have found It already in the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach.

 

[allfoak]

Why does this support your belief?

It is not my belief it is my experience.
I have seen my likeness and images.
Our likeness is our immortal soul, which is the being of light that people often encounter in Near Death Experiences.
Our images are all of the lives our immortal soul has lived.
This is how i know that the resurrection is the transformation of the body into spirit.
I asked my soul-self.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The difference3 is I look for trutn in both, you look for errors in the NT. You only read the NT, you do not study it.

I have studied the Tanach even through a course in Judaica. I keep reading the NT to help me deal with Christians but to make of it a point of formal study, it heavily contradicts the Truth of the Tanach. That's a no no because the NT was the gospel of Paul, the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus. Jesus as a Jew in the Tanach is real. In the NT he becomes a Hellenistic compilation.