Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[omega2xx]

Studying certainly includes being skeptical and looking for errors. So, what do you mean by this?

It is a matter of attitude and if one has an open mind. Those who reject t the NT or the Bible for that matter, read until they think they have found a contradiction. They never try to reconcile the difference and that take serious study. I frequently address supposed contradictions, showing it is a lack of understanding.

 

[Muffled]

To become like man, Jesus had to empty Himself of His omnipotence, omniscience and His omnipresence. There are Scriptures that is what He did.

I believe I know the scriptures and you can try to make a point with them but I will refute your efforts. If you think those scriptures support your position on their own I do not believe they do.

You haven't yet.

[/QUOTE]

I believe you should provide scripture and I will provide scripture that shows he hasn't done that.

I believe there are a lot of people who know the scriptures but that doesn't mean they understand them. You can try to refute but I will hold you to a standard of rationality.

I am waiting on you so I can do a tit for tat.

 

[omega2xx]

I have studied the Tanach even through a course in Judaica. I keep reading the NT to help me deal with Christians but to make of it a point of formal study, it heavily contradicts the Truth of the Tanach. That's a no no because the NT was the gospel of Paul, the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus. Jesus as a Jew in the Tanach is real. In the NT he becomes a Hellenistic compilation.

The N T nowhere contradicsts the OT if you understand both testaments. Prove me wrong.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am aware that the Lord would reveal Himself only through dreams and visions. What you are asking me is if I am aware that God was a liar when He said what he said in Numbers 12:6. Let God be truthful and every man a liar. Yes, I don't need to think; I know that the prophets dialogued with God only in their dreams and visions. Moses' request of assistance at the crossing of the sea was a prayer; a very short prayer. There was no dialogue between Moses and God. Indeed, metaphorically, God in heaven laughs at the wicked who assemble against His Messiah. Who is God's Messiah? If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

I wish you had been present when Sarah laughed at the news that she would have a child a year from that day. She would have asked you, "What are you talking about!" She would not understand your question. Do you know why? Because she was not the one who was dreaming but Abraham. Of course, Abraham told her of his dream and she had from that moment on, her faith activated in that sense. And she had Isaac because she trusted the Lord. How would you feel if I said the same about you and your NT? At least, I am using the Tanach because it was the gospel of Jesus and of all Jews. Do you have any idea why you use the Tanach sometimes? To interpolate the church of Paul into it which is an act of Replacement Theology.

Ben, where does Tanakh say ONLY in dreams and visions?

 

[Muffled]

That interpretations comes from God inspired word. What do the belive about Jesus thatg makes the Christians.



Agreed. Church doctrine based on the Scriptures is the only thing that does matter. Other wise we only have the doctrines of man and we know what man is like

I believe some people will get the inspired word to say that Jesus serves the devil but the interpretations would be incorrect. I believe one has to justify rationally one's interpretation.

I believe they believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

I believe the JW's base their false beliefs on scripture. I believe that is not enough and beliefs should be based on a correct interpretation of scripture.

 

[omega2xx]

You haven't yet.

I believe you should provide scripture and I will provide scripture that shows he hasn't done that.

I believe there are a lot of people who know the scriptures but that doesn't mean they understand them. You can try to refute but I will hold you to a standard of rationality.

I am waiting on you so I can do a tit for tat.[/QUOTE]


Phil 2:7 - Of what did Jesus empty Himself?

Spiritual truth is never rational.

 

[omega2xx]

I believe some people will get the inspired word to say that Jesus serves the devil but the interpretations would be incorrect. I believe one has to justify rationally one's interpretation.

I believe they believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

I believe the JW's base their false beliefs on scripture. I believe that is not enough and beliefs should be based on a correct interpretation of scripture.

The JW's do not have a Bible based on translations from the available mss. The have an editeed KJ.

 

[Muffled]

A Jew in his Scriptures is supposed to know better than a Christian in the Scriptures of a Jew. Understand now?

I believe sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not. Sometimes Jews allow bias to interfere with a correct understanding just as Christians sometimes do the same.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm not going to go through this all over again, especially since you have again misrepresented what I actually posted. Instead of apologizing, all you do is to come back with questions I have already answered and have done so several times with you lately.

Metis,

You've never responded to my assertion. Will you or will you not admit that when testimonies are exactly the same, jurisprudence holds them to be in likely collusion, and that the hallmark of honest eyewitness accounts are differences?

Why would it cost you so much to admit this? Is your skin thinner than I think it is? I think you have a superb intellect, great life experience and a lot of knowledge about the Bible. You just lack some root-level inspiration, is all.

Do you not understand that if you cannot find conciliation with me, and admit that honest people wrote in the Bible what they thought was true, that you prove my point and prove to me yet again that nonbelievers are so stubborn they cannot see light?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Isn't this merely assuming that one religion is correct and the others are not? That has nothing to do with evidence and testability. It is basing an argument on an unsubstantiated premise.
What prophecies convince you so completely?

How does disqualifying the Qu'ran for containing historical (and other) inaccuracies make one religion right and all the others wrong? (This is rhetorical of me, it doesn't.)

Prophecies I find compelling include the ancient Bible prediction that Israel would become a Jewish nation again on a SPECIFIC date, in the Gentile reckoning, May 15, 1948! WOW!

WOWOWOWOWOWOW!

 

[metis]

You just lack some root-level inspiration, is all.

Really? And tell us, how exactly do you know this? "Inspiration" is not relative to just one facet of input.

Do you not understand that if you cannot find conciliation with me, and admit that honest people wrote in the Bible what they thought was true, that you prove my point and prove to me yet again that nonbelievers are so stubborn they cannot see light?

I never claimed or implied that the people who wrote the Bible were dishonest, and I'm sick and tired of your utter willingness to disregard what I actually do post by putting words in my mouth that I never said nor implied.

 

[Muffled]

The JW's do not have a Bible based on translations from the available mss. The have an editeed KJ.

I believe what they have now is better than what they had in the past. Even when the text agrees with modern versions they still manage to misinterpret it.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, where does Tanakh say ONLY in dreams and visions?

Numbers 12:6; Job 33:14,15; Job 4:12,13; Psalms 89:20; etc.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The N T nowhere contradicsts the OT if you understand both testaments. Prove me wrong.

Mat. 1:18 uses a Jew named Yeshua to promote the Hellenistic doctrine of the demigod in contradiction to Deuteronomy 4:15,16.

Acts 9:20 - Paul preached Jesus as the son of God.
Exodus 4:22,23 - The Lord said, "Israel is My Son."

II Timothy 2:8 - Paul declared that it was from his gospel aka Paul's gospel that Jesus resurrected.
II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc - The prophets deny bodily resurrection.

# And a few more which does not come to my mind right now.

 

[Cephus]

It is a matter of attitude and if one has an open mind. Those who reject t the NT or the Bible for that matter, read until they think they have found a contradiction. They never try to reconcile the difference and that take serious study. I frequently address supposed contradictions, showing it is a lack of understanding.

That assumes that there is a rational reconciliation possible. Contradictions clearly exist, except to the religious who refuse to even entertain the possibility.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you think the resurrection of Jesus is spiritual event? If you do, you don't believe in the God of the Bible. Tell me what is impossible for an omnipotent God?

What matters is that through the Teachings of Jesus we too can be resurrected. We understand it differently. We can have spiritual life and not be spiritually dead. Through Christ the church was raised to new life.

Many Christians believe the resurrection is proof of Jesus' Divinity because only God has power over death. The Baha'i perspective, though different, also provides proof of Jesus sovereignty over death, in particular the death of the soul. Jesus' spiritual effect on the lives of His followers and the establishment of the Church demonstrates the power of His love and affirms the claims of His sovereignty. HIs Glorious Being and his Divine Perfections prove that He is a 'Manifestation' of God.

The physical resurrection is not necessary to prove Jesus' Divinity or Power to impart eternal life. Other world religions believe that God is All-Powerful including the power to provide eternal life. Why would God who is All-loving, All merciful, All-powerful, and omnipotent limit Himself to just one religion and prevent the salvation of so many?

The true meaning of the resurrection?

Jesus came from heaven:
John 3:13, John 6:38, John 6:41-2

The risen body of Christ is the Church:
Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

The spiritual resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'

Best wishes

 

[omega2xx]

I believe sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not. Sometimes Jews allow bias to interfere with a correct understanding just as Christians sometimes do the same.

Not only that. Some Christians study the OT, more than some Jews do. Also understnding the NT. helps one understand the OT.

 

[omega2xx]

I believe what they have now is better than what they had in the past. Even when the text agrees with modern versions they still manage to misinterpret it.

It is no better as far as accuracy goes. The edited out all verses that refute their theology. The men who authored their Bible were not even scholars in Greek or Hebrew.

 

[Dawnofhope]

When a Christian says that the NT is the "Word of God" and uses it to prove Jesus is God, prove there is a Satan and a literal hell, that there is a heaven and there is a resurrection of the dead, they are not picking up on what the Baha'i Faith claims... that it's metaphor. Someone is lying, confused, or believing false information. But when the resurrected Jesus is presented as part of the historical, supposed accurate, reporting of actual events, then they are lying or telling the truth. They were not speaking in metaphors. They did not go from talking about literal events, the trial and crucifixion of Jesus, to something symbolic. They speak as if it really happened.

So Jesus used stories to convey spiritual meanings and the apostles didn't?

Where do you come up with these things? Escape velocity? I hope Abdu'l Baha' didn't say that. Jesus, to the Christian, is God. He goes in and out of the material world and spiritual world... I guess a different dimension. I don't know. Where is your Baha'i afterlife realm? Is it past Alpha Centauri or in some spiritual plane?

You have raised a couple of issues.

(1) Science and religion:

Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with science is mere tradition…. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 28-29.

Unity of Science & Religion

(2) The life of the soul after death

Life and Death | What Bahá’ís Believe

Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe

Quotations | What Bahá’ís Believe

Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXII)

Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

Now for you Bahai's, you have to reconcile every major religion that has ever been. Good luck, because they all teach significantly different things. You can make some of them "symbolic". You can say some were man's misinterpretations getting mixed in. But it's a stretch to say all religions had one God as the author.

Makes sense to me. Logic like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

To me, the most sensible answer is that different people had different ideas on what was the spiritual realty. Some had many gods, some one main god, some had underworlds, some had god-like prophets. But, they were all tied in closely with the people and culture they evolved from. Baha'is evolved much more closely with Islam. You have very little in common with Buddhism and Hinduism

We have a great deal in common with Hinduism and Buddhism. The Baha'i faith in 1992, 100 years after the passing of Baha'u'llah was considered by the encyclopaedia Britannica to be the second most widespread religion in the world, only after Christianity. The Baha'i Faith has done well in Asian countries including India.

Lotus Temple - Wikipedia

Bahá'í Faith by continent - Wikipedia

We could do with some Baha'is with a Buddhist and Hindu background on RF to better explain the connections.

Christianity is out there somewhere way different. They think all other religions are totally false. They think without Jesus everybody is going to die in their sins and go to hell. They think even Judaism is off. Why, because they take their Scriptures too literal. They don't believe all the "prophecies" that point to Jesus. God told the Jews to keep His Laws and Christians tell them to forget the Law and to "believe" in Jesus and get "saved".

Wait, that sounds a lot like what you're trying to tell Christians.

Certainly does.

Yes, that all they think is true is wrong. They're taking things way too literal. Can't they see? They don't even understand their own Scriptures. If they truly believed and understood the prophecies, they would see that Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. And, they'd also see that their religion is only one of many "true" religions from God. Strange, taking God's Word too literal? Doesn't God say what He means?

Ever heard of free will?

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 248-250

 

[Dawnofhope]

But they further differ regarding facts and truth.

The Qu'ran explicitly mentions Jesus, teaching He is not the Son of God. The Bible teaches vice versa. They cannot both be true unless we will away logic as part of our "faith".

in regards to Jesus being the 'Son of God' I posted this recently:

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

The Quran surah 9:30 has a different meaning.