Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[oldbadger]

I was not quoting that as part of the evidence. It was to point out that people do not even bother to go into the next room to LOOK at the evidence!

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

You might be surprised at how much we discovered in our investigations.
Rhetoric cannot replace a sound debate, Trailblazer.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, we believe it is the religion for Today. Here is the logical reason:
Yes, and there is a logical reason for that too:

Just a sec......... you have therefore agreed that Bahais claim that the Bahai way is the only and best religion. There's a few folks here that don't you, and a person changing their name to God's Glory and making such claims cannot provide a logical reason, although it could point to a degree of megalomania, I suppose.

Fine, if you want to drink old coffee that is past dated instead of fresh coffee, that's your choice.

I don't drink coffee, but I awoke and smelled yours.

But if you are a deist, why are you even drinking coffee at all, since you do not believe God sends Messengers?

Because I have spent many years studying what history there is of the life and mission of the Galilean peasant Yeshua BarYosef and his friends. That qualifies me to be on this thread, I think.
But I don't think that you are qualified to question why any RF member is on an open scripture-debate thread.

Even @Revoltingest is allowed on here, and he's a proper pagan.

 

[oldbadger]

The Baha'i Faith claims that Jesus did not literally rise from the dead. Is that a claim you should carefully read?

........... which separates Bahai from a huge % of Christianity.
Even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe absolutely in the resurrection, and they are Unitarians. You've separated Bahai from Christianity through this.

Me? I do not believe that Jesus arose from death, he may have been taken down from the cross alive and got away, which explains the Genesarret meeting etc.
But that cannot help the Bahai 'disconnect' with Christianity.

 

[syo]

Which orthodox people would they be? There are so many with contradictory beliefs. Who do we chose?

the eastern orthodox fathers is who i follow.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even @Revoltingest is allowed on here, and he's a proper pagan.

Proper?
Pagans have a much lower opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't get a thread like this. Are non-Christians allowed to comment? If not, please ignore or delete.

I would always start far earlier, wherever doubts begin. For me: what is the evidence that Christ was the son of a (presumed) God? And that he had all these magical powers? I mean we're basing these speculations on 1500+ year old oral and written stories.

And if you question the validity of resurrection, why don't you question Christ's ability to miraculously heal people, or multiply loaves and fishes, etc.? Myths generally grow larger over time.

As a reference to modern times, all those "healing power" shows on TV are absolutely bogus. It's well-known how they scam us with planted people, denial of truly sick people, etc.. A load of rubbish. I'd tend to say: spend more time practicing the Golden Rule!

Sorry, that wasn't very consructive.

Great thoughts and questions. Thank you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't get a thread like this. Are non-Christians allowed to comment? If not, please ignore or delete.

Yes indeed they can.

I would always start far earlier, wherever doubts begin. For me: what is the evidence that Christ was the son of a (presumed) God? And that he had all these magical powers? I mean we're basing these speculations on 1500+ y

This is a good thought. It is important we determine who was Jesus, was He the Christ. We do know the Jews are expecting a Messiah. Most Religions await another Great Message.

And if you question the validity of resurrection, why don't you question Christ's ability to miraculously heal people, or multiply loaves and fishes, etc.? Myths generally grow larger over time.

They all need to be confirmed and balanced with our current knowledge on science.

As a reference to modern times, all those "healing power" shows on TV are absolutely bogus. It's well-known how they scam us with planted people, denial of truly sick people, etc.. A load of rubbish. I'd tend to say: spend more time practicing the Golden Rule!

Sorry, that wasn't very consructive.

The Golden Rule is timeless, I also vote for the Golden Rule in our lives.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Proper?
Pagans have a much lower opinion.

Oh...Wot!?
What on Earth is a Vantologist?

Something to do with steam power?

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh...Wot!?
What on Earth is a Vantologist?

Something to do with steam power?

Mr Van is my traveling alter....travelling to deal with moving steam & other engines...& machine tools.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't get a thread like this. Are non-Christians allowed to comment? If not, please ignore or delete.

Hi.... I'm not a Christian but I study Historical Jesus. Could I try to answer some of your questions?

I would always start far earlier, wherever doubts begin. For me: what is the evidence..................... that he had all these magical powers?

There's some support for 'magical powers', but not as we use those words today. Jesus is described in the Bible as being a Tekton, which somebody has translated as 'carpenter'. But 'Tekton' has more than one meaning 1: Handworker in Wood, Bone, Stone and possibly even Metal. 2: Magi. The thing is, a person who had amazing ability in helping people to feel or be better would definitely be described as a Magi, but also any person who could fashion wood, bone, stone or (esp) metals would have been thought of as a 'magi' as well.
Jesus may well have followed his step-father into handworking materials, but as he became more interested in healing etc he may well have dropped handworking for a more interesting and rewarding line of work.
So the people thought he was a magi.

why don't you question Christ's ability to miraculously heal people, or multiply loaves and fishes, etc.? Myths generally grow larger over time.

People who totally believe in a person's ability to heal can feel and even be much better through the action of the placebo effect, and since Mediterranean males were/are more susceptible to clinical hysterical conditions these are more easily 'cured' by auto-suggestive-placebos.
The mass feedings are reasonably explained by giving as an example which other people (who also had food tucked away) wanted to imitate.

As a reference to modern times, all those "healing power" shows on TV are absolutely bogus. It's well-known how they scam us with planted people, denial of truly sick people, etc.. A load of rubbish. I'd tend to say: spend more time practicing the Golden Rule!

Sorry, that wasn't very consructive.

I watched Harry Edwards, Healer (Leatherhead, England) end my first wife's various kinds of seizures in 1973. She didn't have another until 1976/7, just at the time when Mr Edwards died.
It's hard for me to forget that and a possible healing which I experienced in Oct last year.

 

[oldbadger]

Mr Van is my traveling alter....travelling to deal with moving steam & other engines...& machine tools.

My Goodness, you are a Healer!
You heal moving steam & other engines.... and machine tools. That's kind of Holy. And rare.

But how do you manage on water?

 

[Revoltingest]

But how do you manage on water?

I prefer scotch, but water will do.

 

[oldbadger]

I prefer scotch, but water will do.

Very good answer!
I drink cheap gin. Tesco's own at £5.75 35cls can last me all week if I behave.

 

[siti]

Why can't I have both of these?

Explain to me how you can logically justify a "made up story" consisting of verses that have "no clear meaning" corresponding to an "exact" fulfillment of prophecy thousands of years after the stories were made up. The Bible accounts are either "made up stories" with "no clear meaning" OR a precise prophecy indicating an exact time and sequence of events but it cannot possibly be both.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was a catholic turned atheist. I wrote a chapter called ‘Proofs and evidences of the non existence of God’ to disprove Abdu’l-Baha word for word in SOme Answered Questions.

Then I got to a part I couldn’t quite understand and when I did finally understand it I realized Abdu’l- Baha was right and I was wrong.

Won’t be taking Him on again that’s for sure. Lol

Thanks for explaining that... Before I came here about a month ago, for four years daily I had been conversing on a forum with mostly atheists who were formerly Christians or for whom Christianity never took in their childhood, so I know the drill. The forum owner was raised Catholic and was a confirmed atheist. He researched Baha'i more than anyone else on that forum but he bought off on the Miller book and a lot of other calumnies he found in other books and articles. There is more to that story, why I left; I told it on another thread here, but I forgot the name of the thread... No matter because I live fully in the present.

I have taken issue with some things Abdu'l-Baha has said, because I do not believe he is infallible, which presents a problem for me. However, I know he is probably right and maybe I am just not understanding what he said or he did not mean what I thought he meant, etc. For example, I know animals do not have an eternal soul, but I do not think that means that their spirit is annihilated when they die, as he says in Some Answered Questions... Since Baha'u'llah did not address that and it is not in the Bible, we really cannot know for sure. It is a big issue for me because a heaven without animals is not a heaven at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really?
You're another bahai who insults, I see.

So you don't believe in the existence of Evil or Satan, which is what I already referred to........ but I'll leave the insults to you.

I said: "Of course they wouldn't... They believe that Jesus resurrected and ascended and will return. The only reason they cling to the resurrected Jesus is because they cling to the return of the same Jesus and obviously if the body of Jesus died the same Jesus cannot return... like duh."

That was not an insult... Who would I be insulting?
When I said "like duh" I just meant "that is rather obvious," which is what I should have said had I not been in the mood I was in... We all make mistakes....

I tend to call it as I see it, but that is not rude. It is rather obvious that Christians cling to the return of Jesus but if Jesus had not resurrected bodily that would be impossible... Anyone can do that math.

 

[Trailblazer]

The vast majority of Christians (save a small % of Unitarians) believe in God-the-Father, God-the-Son and God-the-Holy-Ghost.

Bahai does not believe in any of the Trinity Creed.

No, we do not believe in the Trinity the same way that Christians do, but we believe in a Trinity.

This chapter explains what we believe: 27: THE TRINITY

 

[Trailblazer]

You might be surprised at how much we discovered in our investigations.
Rhetoric cannot replace a sound debate, Trailblazer.

I am not saying that nobody has looked in the next room... I know some people have and they just did not like what they found... Not everyone is going to like the Baha'i Faith and people all have their own reasons.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just a sec......... you have therefore agreed that Bahais claim that the Bahai way is the only and best religion. There's a few folks here that don't you, and a person changing their name to God's Glory and making such claims cannot provide a logical reason, although it could point to a degree of megalomania, I suppose.

I did not say only or best. I said it is the religion that God wants us to follow in this new age, according to Baha'u'llah. There are other religions that are also true that people can follow. No religion is better than any other, they are just different, and Baha'i is just more current.

Because I have spent many years studying what history there is of the life and mission of the Galilean peasant Yeshua BarYosef and his friends. That qualifies me to be on this thread, I think.
But I don't think that you are qualified to question why any RF member is on an open scripture-debate thread.

Even @Revoltingest is allowed on here, and he's a proper pagan.

I said: "But if you are a deist, why are you even drinking coffee at all, since you do not believe God sends Messengers?" I was just curious, I was not saying that you are not welcome on this thread... Actually, I lean towards deism so I was just curious what your interest was in religion... You may as well get used to me, psychology is my other hat, so I wonder why people do what they do.

I like your style as you are open and honest. I also tend to be that way. I call it like I see it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Explain to me how you can logically justify a "made up story" consisting of verses that have "no clear meaning" corresponding to an "exact" fulfillment of prophecy thousands of years after the stories were made up. The Bible accounts are either "made up stories" with "no clear meaning" OR a precise prophecy indicating an exact time and sequence of events but it cannot possibly be both.

No, that is not true; it is not an either/or. Some of the Bible is accurate and some of it is dubious at best... Stories written by the gospel writers are not as reliable as what the prophets such as Daniel and Isaiah said. Logically speaking, there would be no reason for the prophets in the OT to fabricate anything whereas there are reasons why the gospel writers might.