Return of Christ

[Ingledsva]

The nation of Israel.

Shortly after Jesus' death Jerusalem was destroyed and the people of Israel dispersed and for over 1900 years the Jewish people were without their homeland. Yet, they are now back in the land of Israel, just as foretold in the scriptures. No other nation of people in history has ever been dispersed from their native homeland for so long, retained their identity, and then returned to their original land as a nation again.

That is the most important sign, but there are others. It's late, though and I'm tired. Goodnight.

I believe he is asking how this is a sign.

In other words, where is the verse stating such so we can read it in context?

Too many times Tanakh texts are taken out of context and meaning.


*

 

[james2ko]

he was speaking to his apostles in that verse.... and i dont think 'i will be with you always' means 'everyone will see me'


Why do you think he says he comes 'as a thief'?


Do thieves usually come out visibly to everyone? Or do you think they come and go without anyone actually seeing them?

They come unexpectedly. As will Christ:

Mat 24:43-44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. ​

Other scriptures tell us He will be visible. A thief can break in unexpectedly yet still be visible, as Ex 22:2-3 clearly illustrates. The bible interprets itself, Pegg.

 

[Pegg]

They come unexpectedly. As will Christ:

Mat 24:43-44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. ​

Other scriptures tell us He will be visible. A thief can break in unexpectedly yet still be visible, as Ex 22:2-3 clearly illustrates. The bible interprets itself, Pegg.

thats true,

but what if he meant that everyone will see the 'sign' which he gave? Seeing the sign is the equivalent to seeing Jesus returned.

Even his disicples weren't expecting to see him again, so they put the question to him...'What will be the 'sign'.... If they thought they would see him again, then they wouldnt have needed a 'sign' that he had returned.

 

[savagewind]

thats true,

but what if he meant that everyone will see the 'sign' which he gave? Seeing the sign is the equivalent to seeing Jesus returned.

Even his disicples weren't expecting to see him again, so they put the question to him...'What will be the 'sign'.... If they thought they would see him again, then they wouldnt have needed a 'sign' that he had returned.

OK. The "sign" is tribulation. I think the proper word there is "described". Read literally Jesus gave the sign means he caused it. Did he?

 

[james2ko]

thats true,but what if he meant that everyone will see the 'sign' which he gave? Seeing the sign is the equivalent to seeing Jesus returned.

An assumption not supported by scripture.

Even his disicples weren't expecting to see him again,

Of course, Christ told them on several occasions they wouldn't.

so they put the question to him...'What will be the 'sign'.... If they thought they would see him again, then they wouldnt have needed a 'sign' that he had returned.

Or they thought He would come in their lifetime and since Jesus told them they would not know the day or hour, they asked for at least some sign.

Additionally:

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears (phaneroo) , we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming (parousia) .​

Phaneroo:

1. to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
a. make actual and visible, realised
b. to make known by teaching
c. to become manifest, be made known
d. of a person
1. expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
e. to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1. who and what one is​

It states when "He" appears--not when His signs appear. He will be visible. Just as other scriptures indicate.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I think it is becoming clear that God's kingdom is coming to earth soon and many of the biblical signs for the return of Jesus Christ to are in place and others are rapidly continuing to occur. Does anyone else sense the nearness of His return?

In fact, the Baha'i Faith teaches that the Christ Spirit already returned about a century and a half ago!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[DawudTalut]

I think it is becoming clear that God's kingdom is coming to earth soon and many of the biblical signs for the return of Jesus Christ to are in place and others are rapidly continuing to occur. Does anyone else sense the nearness of His return?


For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth. Psalm 96:13


lBirth Pangs - ABC's of Prophecy

Peace be on you. His coming is like as he explained about Elijah as John the Baptist. So according to explanation of Jesus (on whom be peace), some else on his name comes [according to Ahmadiyya Muslims he has come in 1889, alislam.org]

Good wishes.

 

[InChrist]

How is the Nation of Israel a sign?

It is a sign because it is fulfillment of prophecies which would occur in the last days...

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God. Isaiah 66:8-9


"Those who study the Word of God recognize the restoration of Israel as the primary sign of the end of the age. Jesus promised the generation that witnessed this event would also witness His return. Matthew 24:34 (NLT)


Long ago the Bible predicted these events would transpire in the last days:
1) The gathering of the Jews into their homeland
2) The rebirth of Israel in a single day
3) The rebirth of Israel in the year 1948
4) Israel's possession of Jerusalem
5) The nations of the earth aligned against Israel
6) The war of Gog and Magog
7) The rebuilding of the Jewish Temple
Five of these seven prophetic events have already been fulfilled, and the final two are certain to follow."

excerpt from:
The Rebirth of Israel

 

[Nakosis]

It is a sign because it is fulfillment of prophecies which would occur in the last days...

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God. Isaiah 66:8-9


"Those who study the Word of God recognize the restoration of Israel as the primary sign of the end of the age. Jesus promised the generation that witnessed this event would also witness His return. Matthew 24:34 (NLT)


Long ago the Bible predicted these events would transpire in the last days:
1) The gathering of the Jews into their homeland
2) The rebirth of Israel in a single day
3) The rebirth of Israel in the year 1948
4) Israel's possession of Jerusalem
5) The nations of the earth aligned against Israel
6) The war of Gog and Magog
7) The rebuilding of the Jewish Temple
Five of these seven prophetic events have already been fulfilled, and the final two are certain to follow."

excerpt from:
The Rebirth of Israel

Get either the right people or a large enough crowd that believe in some Prophecy I don't see it'd be very hard to fulfill the prophecy. Nothing mystical or divine needed.

 

[InChrist]

They are? Fewer than half of the world's 'core' Jewish population live in Israel - in fact, nearly as many live in the USA. Of the 'enlarged' or expanded Jewish population - including those with a Jewish father or spouse, or children living in a household with a Jewish step-parent - more live in the US than in Israel.

A certain proportion of the world's Jewish population has always lived in Israel; it's currently about 45% (or 34% of the 'enlarged' Jewish population). What value must it reach for scriptural prophecy to have been fulfilled?

The value lies in the fact that Israel is a nation again in the their homeland given to them by God. I do not dispute that many Jewish people live elsewhere in the world predominately in the U.S. as you've stated. Nevertheless I believe God has begun the fulfillment of he last day prophecies which refer to the restore of the nation of Israel, to the consternation of many other nations in the area and of the world and will continue to bring the fulfillment to completion. This means to me we are nearing the end of the church age and close to the tribulation period or Jacob's trouble referred to in Jeremiah 30:7

 

[Nakosis]

In fact, the Baha'i Faith teaches that the Christ Spirit already returned about a century and a half ago!

Peace,

Bruce

See...

Get enough people to believe that and "Wala" fulfilled prophecy.

Fulfilled prophecies only prove belief.

 

[InChrist]

Get either the right people or a large enough crowd that believe in some Prophecy I don't see it'd be very hard to fulfill the prophecy. Nothing mystical or divine needed.

You're certainly free to have that perspective, but I think it is highly unlikely if not impossible to "get either the right people or a large enough crowd" together in order to fulfill biblical prophecy especially one as major as the re-establishment of a nation against all odds.

 

[InChrist]

In fact, the Baha'i Faith teaches that the Christ Spirit already returned about a century and a half ago!

Peace,

Bruce

I think the scriptures give insight and wisdom on how to respond to such claims...

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27

 

[Nakosis]

You're certainly free to have that perspective, but I think it is highly unlikely if not impossible to "get either the right people or a large enough crowd" together in order to fulfill biblical prophecy especially one as major as the re-establishment of a nation against all odds.

Unlikely, but possible?

There was a lot of support for the creations of Israel because of "Bible" prophecy. Not too hard to sell and be supported by a largely Christian nation.

Lets gather a bunch of people and call them Jews, then force a number of people living in the area to flee, lets call then non-Jews. Then with with all the people who we are calling Jews lets create a "Nation" and lets call it Israel. Why not Judea? that wouldn't fulfill the prophecy would it?

If you want to believe in the prophecy that's ok. Belief often creates the reality. Just without the belief nothing is really proven.

Belief explains many things but it doesn't really prove anything.

If Christ were to return, I kind of doubt he or she would get any better reception then last time. People prefer more to invest in their beliefs then the truth that is before them.

 

[Ingledsva]

I think the scriptures give insight and wisdom on how to respond to such claims...

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27

I think you are missing the point.


Your Jesus can just as easily fit into this category.


There is no proof of him being the Messiah.



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[Pegg]

An assumption not supported by scripture.



Of course, Christ told them on several occasions they wouldn't.



Or they thought He would come in their lifetime and since Jesus told them they would not know the day or hour, they asked for at least some sign.

Additionally:

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears (phaneroo) , we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming (parousia) .​

Phaneroo:

1. to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
a. make actual and visible, realised
b. to make known by teaching
c. to become manifest, be made known
d. of a person
1. expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
e. to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1. who and what one is​

It states when "He" appears--not when His signs appear. He will be visible. Just as other scriptures indicate.

take all the scriptures into account and give an explanation which does not contradict any of them...thats the answer here.

 

[Bunyip]

It is a sign because it is fulfillment of prophecies which would occur in the last days...

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?

Thanks for the response, but Israel wasn't born in a day - it took years of negotiations. And if you mean that it was declared to be a nation state in a single day - then the same goes for all nation states.

For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God. Isaiah 66:8-9

"Those who study the Word of God recognize the restoration of Israel as the primary sign of the end of the age. Jesus promised the generation that witnessed this event would also witness His return. Matthew 24:34 (NLT)


Long ago the Bible predicted these events would transpire in the last days:
1) The gathering of the Jews into their homeland
2) The rebirth of Israel in a single day
3) The rebirth of Israel in the year 1948
4) Israel's possession of Jerusalem
5) The nations of the earth aligned against Israel

There are more Jews in Australia and the US then in Israel, so they are gathered in Melbourne as much as in Israel. More importantly the nations of the earth are most definitely NOT aligned against Israel - Israel is supported by the most powerful nations on earth.

6)

The war of Gog and Magog
7) The rebuilding of the Jewish Temple
Five of these seven prophetic events have already been fulfilled, and the final two are certain to follow."

excerpt from:
The Rebirth of Irael

My point is simply that such signs and portents could fit any time or place in world history. Nationsrising and falling, war and so on are constants.

 

[james2ko]

take all the scriptures into account and give an explanation which does not contradict any of them...thats the answer here.

I thought I did Can you please point out any contradictions in the passages I have presented so far? Remember, a contradiction is something that cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context.

 

[Pegg]

I thought I did Can you please point out any contradictions in the passages I have presented so far? Remember, a contradiction is something that cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context.

John 14:19 "The world will behold me no more..."

Revelation 1:7 "every eye will see him..."

Can you offer an explanation between these two statements so they dont contradict one another?

 

[savagewind]

Can anyone prove the pronoun at Rev 1:7 is "him"?