Revelation 14

[look3467]

Revelation 14:1
I know the answer to my own questions, but what I want to know is if anybody else knows the same answer?

Here's the questions:
1. Who are the 144,00
2.How is the name of the Father written in their foreheads, and why?
3. Is a lamb a beast?

This subject is open for discussion and all views will not be criticized.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[tomspug]

I don't focus on Revelation too much. I have a hard enough time loving people in the present to worry about interpreting prophecy.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No clue about the 144000

Name written on forehead is symbolic for belief.

No, I don't think that a lamb is a beast.

 

[Sola'lor]

1. Who are the 144,000

They are 12,000 leaders chosen from each of the twelve tribes to help administer the church under Jesus Christ.

2.How is the name of the Father written in their foreheads, and why?

They will recieve the priesthood through the laying on of hands.

3. Is a lamb a beast?

The Lamb is a symbol for Jesus Christ.

 

[Dunemeister]

Apocalyptic prophecy is difficult because, unlike second-century Jewish Christians, we've (mostly) lost the art of reading this sort of literature. Hence we attempt to take the numbers literally. For example, we might try to say, as Sola'lor has done, that the 144,000 mentioned there are an actual group of 144,000 individuals.

I'm not convinced that's the way to read it. Revelation assumes that you know and understand the previous 65 books. It makes reference to dozens upon dozens of biblical themes, and it does this indirectly. Let's look at the case of the 144,000 in context.

Revelation starts with John having a vision of Jesus, and Jesus gives him a message to the "7 churches that are in Asia" (modern Turkey). The churches are commended and scolded and promised rewards for amending their ways. This is followed by a heavenly worship scene in which all of heaven and earth worships "the one who is seated on the throne."

Then we have a vision of the martyrs asking God when they will be avenged, and God tells them to wait a bit, but they will be avenged. They and all of heaven worship "the one seated on the throne and...the lamb."

And now (chapter 6), six of seven seals are broken. We can only assume that the plagues represented by the seals are God's answer to the martyr's prayers. In chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as "servants of God" who have been "sealed", which is to say spared from the plagues, the wrath of God. They are described as 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel. Now, where have we seen this kind of enumeration before? Well, we've seen this in the book of Numbers just before Israel begins the conquest of the Promised Land. I think it's highly likely, therefore, that the 144,000 are a quasi-military picture or metaphor of the New Testament church as a whole, not a subgroup of that church. Revelation here calls up a military sort of image for the church, but it is not a military in the traditional sense.

It's also worth noting that the numbers 1,000 and 12 (and the doubling of 12) are all numberologically significant. 12 is the number of completion, so part of the point is to say that all -- every last one -- of those who are sealed by God (owned by God) shall be saved (whatever that means, we need not go there for purposes of this post, I think).

Having the seal of god on their foreheads indicates ownership. God owns them.

There are two lambs in Revelation. One is Jesus, the Christ. The other is antichrist. One is the real article, the other a parody.

 

[look3467]

I don't focus on Revelation too much. I have a hard enough time loving people in the present to worry about interpreting prophecy.

That is quite OK! What little you do towards God is certainly ac cepted. For to much is given, much is expected.

Let God work that out in you, the loving people, I mean, than later as your spirit prospers, more understanding will come your way.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

No clue about the 144000

Name written on forehead is symbolic for belief.

No, I don't think that a lamb is a beast.

You got the last part correct, "written in the forehead is symbolic of the belief of Israel at that time.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

They are 12,000 leaders chosen from each of the twelve tribes to help administer the church under Jesus Christ.



They will receive the priesthood through the laying on of hands.



The Lamb is a symbol for Jesus Christ.

First of all, that is a beautiful picture of a women as your avatar. And I know, it is symbolic, right?

All of your understanding is correct for this time.

This verse might help in understanding how God uses things to convey a message:
Hos 12:10 I have also spoken unto the prophets, and I have multiplied visions; and by the ministry of the prophets have I used similitudes.

Similitudes are prevalent throughout the whole bible, as well as numbers multiplied many times.

In the case of the 144, it was the group of men with Judas who had Jesus arrested at the garden, but coded 144,000.

You will see that the number 7 is constantly repeated and used selectively to describe to us how God in Jesus recreated the new world in one day, using the same 7 day pattern.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Apocalyptic prophecy is difficult because, unlike second-century Jewish Christians, we've (mostly) lost the art of reading this sort of literature. Hence we attempt to take the numbers literally. For example, we might try to say, as Sola'lor has done, that the 144,000 mentioned there are an actual group of 144,000 individuals.

I'm not convinced that's the way to read it. Revelation assumes that you know and understand the previous 65 books. It makes reference to dozens upon dozens of biblical themes, and it does this indirectly. Let's look at the case of the 144,000 in context.

Revelation starts with John having a vision of Jesus, and Jesus gives him a message to the "7 churches that are in Asia" (modern Turkey). The churches are commended and scolded and promised rewards for amending their ways. This is followed by a heavenly worship scene in which all of heaven and earth worships "the one who is seated on the throne."

Then we have a vision of the martyrs asking God when they will be avenged, and God tells them to wait a bit, but they will be avenged. They and all of heaven worship "the one seated on the throne and...the lamb."

And now (chapter 6), six of seven seals are broken. We can only assume that the plagues represented by the seals are God's answer to the martyr's prayers. In chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as "servants of God" who have been "sealed", which is to say spared from the plagues, the wrath of God. They are described as 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel. Now, where have we seen this kind of enumeration before? Well, we've seen this in the book of Numbers just before Israel begins the conquest of the Promised Land. I think it's highly likely, therefore, that the 144,000 are a quasi-military picture or metaphor of the New Testament church as a whole, not a subgroup of that church. Revelation here calls up a military sort of image for the church, but it is not a military in the traditional sense.

It's also worth noting that the numbers 1,000 and 12 (and the doubling of 12) are all numberologically significant. 12 is the number of completion, so part of the point is to say that all -- every last one -- of those who are sealed by God (owned by God) shall be saved (whatever that means, we need not go there for purposes of this post, I think).

Having the seal of god on their foreheads indicates ownership. God owns them.

There are two lambs in Revelation. One is Jesus, the Christ. The other is antichrist. One is the real article, the other a parody.

I will say this to you, that you are at the threshold of understanding, for what little you have written tells me that you are open to understanding of Gods works in Jesus.

Yes, all numbers are significant, but many are multiples as to code them, but mean something other than the literal meanings.

Here are some verses that help in understanding that: This one being most popular:
2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And then God multiplies in word :
Exo 11:9 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Pharaoh will not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
Deu 1:10 Jehovah your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Act 12:24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

Enter in word search on E-Sword if you have it the word multiplied and you will see how it is used.

And yes, one has to have knowledge (General)of what is all the books of the bible so as when a thought, a revelation comes to us, it may be confirmed by the word in the bible.

The thing to keep in mind is that the book of Revelation is "about Jesus", and not so much about us, although we are the object of all that He went through as described in the book.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dunemeister]

Thanks for your response, look3467. I follow Jesus as best I can, and in my walk with him, I keep a firm eye on scripture, tradition, and reason. And in light of that, I'd like to suggest that not all numbers in scripture are to be taken as symbolic. The practice of using numbers symbolically is especially common in apocalyptic literature, so it's a good idea to notice patterns with numbers in that style of writing.

However, in the verses you cite, the numbers are not being used in this way. In fact, I'd say that in every case, something closer to a more literal reading is probably more appropriate, given the contexts.

However, this thread is about Revelation 14, so perhaps we should confine ourselves there, eh?

 

[nutshell]

This subject is open for discussion and all views will not be criticized.

Peace>>>AJ

Technically, your response to each post is a criticism.

 

[look3467]

Thanks for your response, look3467. I follow Jesus as best I can, and in my walk with him, I keep a firm eye on scripture, tradition, and reason. And in light of that, I'd like to suggest that not all numbers in scripture are to be taken as symbolic. The practice of using numbers symbolically is especially common in apocalyptic literature, so it's a good idea to notice patterns with numbers in that style of writing.

However, in the verses you cite, the numbers are not being used in this way. In fact, I'd say that in every case, something closer to a more literal reading is probably more appropriate, given the contexts.

However, this thread is about Revelation 14, so perhaps we should confine ourselves there, eh?

An interesting note here on your last comment, is that pieces of the puzzle of the big picture are found all over the bible, and not limited to any one chapter.

That is how the picture comes together, when other scriptures give light to scripture, or should better be said, confirms the thought of the intended word or number.

Which entails that one be knowledgeable of the bible as a whole.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Technically, your response to each post is a criticism.

If you like to see it that way, it is as you say then.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[nutshell]

If you like to see it that way, it is as you say then.

Peace>>>AJ

From the dictionary:

crit·i·cism (kr

t

-s

z

m)
n. 1. The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
2. A critical comment or judgment.
3. a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism.

 

[Dunemeister]

Technically, your response to each post is a criticism.

Well, that depends on what you consider criticism. Perhaps if we take a highly technical interpretation, I criticized the other poster. However, was I not respectful of the person I "criticized"? If so, what's the big deal? Besides, if there's no room for respectful disagreement in a discussion, there's little point in having it.

If I've completely lost the point of this site, please have a moderator contact me.

 

[nutshell]

Well, that depends on what you consider criticism. Perhaps if we take a highly technical interpretation, I criticized the other poster. However, was I not respectful of the person I "criticized"? If so, what's the big deal? Besides, if there's no room for respectful disagreement in a discussion, there's little point in having it.

If I've completely lost the point of this site, please have a moderator contact me.

Respectfulness and criticism are independant of each other. I provided a dictionary definition of criticism. The point was, the OP stated there would be no criticism, yet that is exactly what he engaged in, respectful or not.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Here's what I've been told.
1: 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel
OR
2: The 12 tribes of Israel (all of the Jews before Christ) X the 12 apostles (all of Christianity)
The number 1000 symbolically represents completeness hence 144,000.
Either way 144,000 isn't a literal number but symbolic.

Some think it is, ie JW's. If that's the case, there going to be a BIG RED DRAGON with 7 heads, 10 horns, 7 crowns and it's going to use it's tail to hurl 1/3 of the stars in space down to the earth.

 

[look3467]

What I meant by criticism is not to put your views down as unwarranted.
For all views are respected by me.

The point is to open a discussion, share our views and perhaps learn from each other.

If my views are offensive, or are not in line with other views, then the option is not to reply, or reply in a respectful manner as I would in kind.

I realize that on the issue of the 144,000, and many others like it are many different views.

If I in my view can help some see a different view of it, then they can make their own choices on what to take or leave.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Colabomb]

I personally believe the book of Revelation to be Highly Symbolic. It is quite possible that John was addressing current issues, perhaps with some prophesy as well.

It is very difficult to understand what these symbols mean because we are so far removed from the time in which they were written.

I believe John's Audience would have understood them very clearly. The Book only became mysterious with the passage of time.

but thats just my opinion.

 

[Sola'lor]

I personally believe the book of Revelation to be Highly Symbolic. It is quite possible that John was addressing current issues, perhaps with some prophesy as well.

It is very difficult to understand what these symbols mean because we are so far removed from the time in which they were written.

I believe John's Audience would have understood them very clearly. The Book only became mysterious with the passage of time.

but thats just my opinion.

I agree with this.