RF's on Islam

[FearGod]

I certainly blame Islam. The bad stuff is demonstrably in there, just like it is in the Bible. But individual Muslims (and Christians) ignore the parts they don't like and adopt common social norms over their stated religious beliefs and create various sects of the religions that are not, necessarily, violent. That doesn't stop the religion from being awful, only the people who choose not to follow the awful parts.

Which verses that are bad in the quran?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Do I understand that you don't blame Islam but some bad Muslims who used Islam as an excuse for their bad deeds.

No, Islam is most definitely to blame because it accommodates intolerant attitudes into its belief system. Indeed, since Islam's entire reason for being is to replace older belief systems, it is inherently intolerant and has a tendency to encourage such attitudes in its adherents. Fortunately it doesn't always work which is why there are plenty of Muslims who find some of the faith's bloodier aspects distasteful. Sadly though, the phenomenon of the violent Muslim occurs too frequently to simply dismiss as an abuse of Islam.

It can't be, for example the prophet in a written letter said that those who kill the Christians
for their beliefs will be my enemy in the hereafter, also he used to warn the soldier not to kill
any child, any woman, the elderly and even not to destroy any establishments including the one
of nature such as the trees ..etc, do the terrorists choose who to kill when killing the civilians
which include women and children, no and no, they don't follow Islam and they don't follow the message of the prophet.

But Muhammad also wrote in the Quran that Muslims can kill Pagans wherever they find them (before you argue 'a verse made for its time', remember Islam teaches the Quran is inerrant and eternally true); Islam also teaches that the final days before Allah's Judgement will be preceded by Muslims killing Jews (the whole 'rock cries out "there is a Jew hiding beneath me"' thing in the Sahih Hadith).

God said he's the one who will punish us according to our beliefs, he didn't say that Muslims
should kill and punish people according their beliefs, otherwise why the test then.

Why the test at all if Allah spoils it by telling people how to pass? Indeed, why is there a test at all since Allah apparently knows who will pass & will fail anyway? His omniscience makes things rather redundant.

 

[FearGod]

No, Islam is most definitely to blame because it accommodates intolerant attitudes into its belief system. Indeed, since Islam's entire reason for being is to replace older belief systems, it is inherently intolerant and has a tendency to encourage such attitudes in its adherents. Fortunately it doesn't always work which is why there are plenty of Muslims who find some of the faith's bloodier aspects distasteful. Sadly though, the phenomenon of the violent Muslim occurs too frequently to simply dismiss as an abuse of Islam.

People can stay in their own religion, no one was forced to become a Muslim,
Many Christians lived with Muslims and weren't forced into Islam.

But Muhammad also wrote in the Quran that Muslims can kill Pagans wherever they find them (before you argue 'a verse made for its time', remember Islam teaches the Quran is inerrant and eternally true); Islam also teaches that the final days before Allah's Judgement will be preceded by Muslims killing Jews (the whole 'rock cries out "there is a Jew hiding beneath me"' thing in the Sahih Hadith).

Do you have an evidence that prophet Mohammad invented the quran and which verse you're talking about, regarding the hadith, I don't trust all the hadith even if narrated by my father.

Why the test at all if Allah spoils it by telling people how to pass? Indeed, why is there a test at all since Allah apparently knows who will pass & will fail anyway? His omniscience makes things rather redundant.

Who told you that God knows already who will pass and who won't?
About why God intervene, it's when people exceed the limits, such as when they used
to kill baby females and the continuous wars between the tribes due to revenge ..etc

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

People can stay in their own religion, no one was forced to become a Muslim,

Apart from the Meccans once Muhammad occupied the city, vandalised their temple & turned it into a mosque; apart from the citizens of the Arab city of Ta'if who weren't allowed to surrender to Muhammad unless they converted to Islam and allowed Muslims to destroy their city's temple to Allat. I could go on but I think you get the idea.

Many Christians lived with Muslims and weren't forced into Islam.

Of course Christians were forced to accept Islam. Ottoman janissaries were children stolen from the empire's Christian subjects and put through both political & religious indoctrination. They didn't have a choice. When Cyprus was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, Catholics & Greek Orthodox Christians converted to Islam in order to escape discriminatory tax burdens. I'm sure the same is true of Christians and other 'Peoples of the Book' like Zoroastrians all over the Muslim world. So yes, not all Christians have been forced at the point of sword or gun to convert to Islam, but poverty & the need to eat are pretty compelling reasons too.

Further, Muslim powers across the ages became very adept at enslaving non-Muslims. One of the easiest ways for a slave to become a free man again was to become a Muslim. Indeed, after the Ottoman navy was defeated at Lepanto, an estimated 12,000 Christian galley slaves were freed.

Do you have an evidence that prophet Mohammad invented the quran and which verse you're talking about, regarding the hadith, I don't trust all the hadith even if narrated by my father.

No, but of the two competing claims (i.e. 'Quran was revealed to man by God' or 'Quran was written by Muhammad'), mine is not the extraordinary one. As you (and any other Muslims) have yet to provide any evidence in support of your significantly more extraordinary claim, you are in no position to dismiss mine on the basis of a lack of evidence. Occam's Razor suggests that 'the Quran was written by humans' is the far more likely thing to have happened.

As to the ahadith: this claim made in Muslim and Bukhari which are two trusted hadiths. Call me jaded but this is the part of the conversation where I fully expect you to decide trusted hadiths are all of a sudden untrustworthy. Due to their inconvenience in an argument, no doubt. Or maybe you'll go the alternate route and dismiss it because the site I sourced is "anti-Islam propaganda".

Who told you that God knows already who will pass and who won't?

Islam does when it claims Allah is all-knowing. How many times is Allah called all-knowing, all-seeing etc in the Quran?

About why God intervene, it's when people exceed the limits, such as when they used
to kill baby females and the continuous wars between the tribes due to revenge ..etc

But he hasn't seen fit to intervene at any point in history since then or in any part of the world outside the Middle East. Convenient.

 

[FearGod]

Apart from the Meccans once Muhammad occupied the city, vandalised their temple & turned it into a mosque; apart from the citizens of the Arab city of Ta'if who weren't allowed to surrender to Muhammad unless they converted to Islam and allowed Muslims to destroy their city's temple to Allat. I could go on but I think you get the idea.

It wasn't about converting to Islam, it was a war between the disbelievers and the believers,
you can't fight and kill someone to convert him, the disbelievers were enemies whom were
targeting the prophet to kill him, so it was just a war to stop the aggression of the disbelievers.

Of course Christians were forced to accept Islam. Ottoman janissaries were children stolen from the empire's Christian subjects and put through both political & religious indoctrination. They didn't have a choice. When Cyprus was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, Catholics & Greek Orthodox Christians converted to Islam in order to escape discriminatory tax burdens. I'm sure the same is true of Christians and other 'Peoples of the Book' like Zoroastrians all over the Muslim world. So yes, not all Christians have been forced at the point of sword or gun to convert to Islam, but poverty & the need to eat are pretty compelling reasons too.

I don't agree with you, if it's so then how you explain that many are accepting Islam today
but not forced to and not for the need of money...etc

Further, Muslim powers across the ages became very adept at enslaving non-Muslims. One of the easiest ways for a slave to become a free man again was to become a Muslim. Indeed, after the Ottoman navy was defeated at Lepanto, an estimated 12,000 Christian galley slaves were freed.

Was Spain slaved by Muslims or was progressed by them?
Spain was the best region in Europe during the Islamic golden age,
don't you think so?

No, but of the two competing claims (i.e. 'Quran was revealed to man by God' or 'Quran was written by Muhammad'), mine is not the extraordinary one. As you (and any other Muslims) have yet to provide any evidence in support of your significantly more extraordinary claim, you are in no position to dismiss mine on the basis of a lack of evidence. Occam's Razor suggests that 'the Quran was written by humans' is the far more likely thing to have happened.

We believe the quran was revealed to the prophet, you may think otherwise but that
doesn't make your guessing to be the right one.

As to the ahadith: this claim made in Muslim and Bukhari which are two trusted hadiths. Call me jaded but this is the part of the conversation where I fully expect you to decide trusted hadiths are all of a sudden untrustworthy. Due to their inconvenience in an argument, no doubt. Or maybe you'll go the alternate route and dismiss it because the site I sourced is "anti-Islam propaganda".

You have the whole quran to discuss and find any mistakes about the religion then why you
need to discuss a narrated stories written hundreds of years after the prophet's death?

Islam does when it claims Allah is all-knowing. How many times is Allah called all-knowing, all-seeing etc in the Quran?

All-knowing doesn't mean that he knows what your decision will be for tomorrow,
but he's all knowing of what's happening at this moment and what's every ones intentions.

But he hasn't seen fit to intervene at any point in history since then or in any part of the world outside the Middle East. Convenient.

What was the earth population before 4000 years ago?

 

[Shad]

I don't agree with you, if it's so then how you explain that many are accepting Islam today
but not forced to and not for the need of money...etc

Times change or did you not notice the Ottoman Empire no longer exists? You dodged the point by shifting the time context.... Congratulations

All-knowing doesn't mean that he knows what your decision will be for tomorrow,
but he's all knowing of what's happening at this moment and what's every ones intentions.

This is hilarious. If God does not know what will happen tomorrow then the very idea of prophecy is moot. Do you know what a prophecy is? Your argument just refuted not only Islam but Judaism, Christianity and every religion that uses prophecy in relation to God.

Think before you post as your answer has implications you never considered at all.

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course it does ya filthy racist!!

Heh, that's another annoying thing; people's inability to differentiate between race, religion, and nationality. Does converting to a different faith rewrite your DNA?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Heh, that's another annoying thing; people's inability to differentiate between race, religion, and nationality. Does converting to a different faith rewrite your DNA?

You can argue that since Islam both informs and is informed by the cultures it encounters, mocking Islam is racist. But to be honest I think that's stretching the term beyond anything meaningful. Using that logic, mocking a sports personality is racist because sport is a part of cultures. Ridiculous, isn't it?

 

[Sully]

I don't believe the poll questions offer a depiction of what I believe. I believe Muslims are true God seekers but they are utterly lost and deceived. I believe the foundations of Islam are violent and radical Islam is simply returning to its roots found in the Quran and the Hadith literature.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It wasn't about converting to Islam, it was a war between the disbelievers and the believers,
you can't fight and kill someone to convert him,

Really? Because I'm pretty sure verses like this "And fight with them until there is no more persecution (fitnah) and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do" (8:39) and this "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah." (2:191) make it pretty clear that the war against the non-Muslims is waged with the ultimate goal of converting them to Islam.

the disbelievers were enemies whom were
targeting the prophet to kill him, so it was just a war to stop the aggression of the disbelievers.

Only after Muhammad fled to Medina and began targeting Meccan trade caravans. Before that the Meccans had put up with him slandering their beliefs and saying they worshipped false gods for ten years. That's a hell of a lot longer than most Muslim nations would tolerate the reverse today. You and other Muslims often point out that violence in self-defence is okay but now it seems it's only okay for Muslims to engage in self-defence. Muhammad started attacking Mecca purely for the 'crime' of not believing his claims about deity & prophethood.

I don't agree with you,

Disagree all you like; it still happened.

if it's so then how you explain that many are accepting Islam today
but not forced to and not for the need of money...etc

I don't get this. Why are you arguing as though I said those are the only reasons people convert to Islam?

Was Spain slaved by Muslims or was progressed by them?
Spain was the best region in Europe during the Islamic golden age,
don't you think so?

Progressed, definitely. Does that defeat my original point? Not at all. I didn't say Muslims enslaved every non-Muslim they encountered. Please stop arguing strawmen.

We believe the quran was revealed to the prophet, you may think otherwise but that
doesn't make your guessing to be the right one.

Right back at ya. The difference between us is that while our claims are equally unprovable without time travel, I can admit that my claim is a guess.

You have the whole quran to discuss and find any mistakes about the religion then why you
need to discuss a narrated stories written hundreds of years after the prophet's death?

Well like it or not, Islam is more than just the Quran. The ahadith are an accepted part of Islamic doctrine so they're as much a part of your faith as the Quran. As to discussing the Quran and any mistakes therein, pick any relevant thread on this forum.

All-knowing doesn't mean that he knows what your decision will be for tomorrow,
but he's all knowing of what's happening at this moment and what's every ones intentions.

That's exactly what it means. If somebody is all-knowing it means they 'know all'; everything. If Allah is all-knowing then he not only knows what decisions I'll make tomorrow, he'll know what things I decided for & against, and which decisions I didn't get the chance to make. I'm honestly shocked at the inconsistency that is on display in your arguments. Ahadith don't matter even though they're part of Islam but are an inconvenience and now Allah's omniscience now doesn't matter because it's inconvenient.

And, as Shad has pointed out, your position has just destroyed the worth of every prophecy in Islam. Well done, you may have just committed apostasy!

But don't worry! Since Islam is not a violent religion you won't have to fear any sort of reprisals or risk of being attacked or anything.

What was the earth population before 4000 years ago?

I could guesstimate but truthfully I don't know. How is this pertinent?

 

[FearGod]

That's exactly what it means. If somebody is all-knowing it means they 'know all'; everything. If Allah is all-knowing then he not only knows what decisions I'll make tomorrow, he'll know what things I decided for & against, and which decisions I didn't get the chance to make. I'm honestly shocked at the inconsistency that is on display in your arguments. Ahadith don't matter even though they're part of Islam but are an inconvenience and now Allah's omniscience now doesn't matter because it's inconvenient.

And, as Shad has pointed out, your position has just destroyed the worth of every prophecy in Islam. Well done, you may have just committed apostasy!

But don't worry! Since Islam is not a violent religion you won't have to fear any sort of reprisals or risk of being attacked or anything.

The prophecy is telling about an event which is planned to happen by God's will and no one
on earth can prevent it from happening, it has nothing to do with all-knowing, simply because
the event is planned to occur in the future not because God knows but because he decided
or promised it to happen.

I think it's very simple to understand except of you don't want to understand or you
aren't able to get it then I think I'm done.

People just misunderstood what all-knowing means and saying that God knows where
are you going before you have been born is irrational and doesn't make any sense.

 

[Shad]

The prophecy is telling about an event which is planned to happen by God's will and no one
on earth can prevent it from happening, it has nothing to do with all-knowing, simply because
the event is planned to occur in the future not because God knows but because he decided
or promised it to happen.

I think it's very simple to understand except of you don't want to understand or you
aren't able to get it then I think I'm done.

People just misunderstood what all-knowing means and saying that God knows where
are you going before you have been born is irrational and doesn't make any sense.

Which makes God restricted by time thus not a God of classical theism which renders Allah a god rather than God. Seems like you have no idea what classical theism is nor that Allah is part of that idea... Which means you know less about your religion than I do, which I have shown in previous exchanges beside this thread.. You are a Meme Muslim, you parrot what you hear understand little of it than proceed to spread your ignorance here as if you know anything. Hilarious.

Go ask an Islamic theologian about my point. Most that actually have an education will confirm exactly what I have said.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The prophecy is telling about an event which is planned to happen by God's will and no one
on earth can prevent it from happening, it has nothing to do with all-knowing, simply because
the event is planned to occur in the future not because God knows but because he decided
or promised it to happen.

I think it's very simple to understand except of you don't want to understand or you
aren't able to get it then I think I'm done.

People just misunderstood what all-knowing means and saying that God knows where
are you going before you have been born is irrational and doesn't make any sense.

If Allah's perception of events is limited to the extent that he doesn't know what I'll do tomorrow then he is subject to the same constraints of time as his creation (us); ergo he cannot have created time (because how can he be subject to something if he created it and still be all-powerful?), ergo is not all-knowing nor all-powerful, ergo is not as advertised, ergo Islam is either a) wrong; or b) not venerating the Abrahamic god as it claims it is doing. Further, if Allah doesn't know what I'll do tomorrow because his perception of time is limited then there's no reason to assume he knows the prophesied events will happen. You're trying to have your cake and eat it here - at once Allah is certain that events X, Y & Z will happen in accordance with prophecy at some unspecified point in the future, but he's also stumbling along, oblivious to what I and the rest of creation will do tomorrow. Which is it? It can't be both because both positions are inherently contradictory.

The only thing that's simple to understand here is you're taking a term and trying to give it a definition that runs counter to what it currently means - and you're expecting us to take it seriously too. All-knowing means knowing all. It's as simple as that. That is how Allah has been advertised for decades, centuries even. If all of a sudden he's not omniscient then you'd better get on the phone to whatever religious leaders are near you so they can get this sorted out PDQ.

 

[Father Heathen]

You can argue that since Islam both informs and is informed by the cultures it encounters, mocking Islam is racist. But to be honest I think that's stretching the term beyond anything meaningful. Using that logic, mocking a sports personality is racist because sport is a part of cultures. Ridiculous, isn't it?

Indeed it is. Cultures aren't races either. Clearly you can have people of different races all belong to the same culture, and likewise have people of the same race belong to different cultures.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have to answer 'Other', purely due to the variance in belief under the 'Islamic' umbrella. Succinctly, I have Muslim friends, but am not particularly a fan of the religion. Or most religions, really. But I'm not anti-theistic, so wouldn't say I'm 'against' religion.