Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
No, my ideas probably don't correspond with mystical experience. They correspond with actual physical experience.
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No, my ideas probably don't correspond with mystical experience. They correspond with actual physical experience.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Then you're in the wrong thread.
godnotgod
Thou art That
I say your just pulling rabbits out of a hat. Easy to say: 'it's the blah blah blah generated by blah and blah'. At what point do these so called 'interactions' become consciousness, and how, and to what end? You see, you have to explain how consciousness becomes what it is; I say it already is what it is, and always has been That. You know. The Changeless. Think about it: if you were the Ultimate Reality compared to anything that could possibly be, there would be no reason to change, would there, except for one reason: to pretend that you are something else for the sheer joy of it. After all,Absolute and Changeless Joy is the ultimate condition, is it not?
re: nonlocality: I gave you a proven experiment showing that the brain is capable of non-local communication. What proof do you have to present of this 'cumulative effect' notion?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
There really is no point at which anything "becomes conscious". We are composed of matter which is neither truly conscious nor living. As things changed over time, complex forms emerged with the ability to interact in different, unique ways. Those complex interactions are what give us that feeling of consciousness. Consciousness is just the feeling of wakefulness or awareness, but it is those complex interactions which actually generate that feeling to begin with.
As far as cumulative effect is concerned, that can be demonstrated by the fact that we have so many different senses (interactions) working in unison...sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell... Those combined with the various electrochemical interactions inside the brain make up that cumulative effect we call "consciousness".
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Not buying any of your spiel. You keep contradicting yourself over and over, too numerous to mention.
Here, you first say 'nothing becomes conscious', and then almost in the same breath, you cleverly disguise what is actually the process of 'becoming' by calling it it a 'cumulative effect', and then the rabbit magically appears as 'consciousness'.
All of your sleight of hand mumbo jumbo talk is nothing more than the already proposed fake scientific 'theory' called Emergent 'Theory', not a scientific theory at all, and more a weak hypothesis which serves only as a temporary construct because science doesn't know what the hell it is dealing with.
So there is only this 'feeling of wakefulness', which is an illusion. Well, then, let's go further and have a true awakening, shall we, and not just a mechanical billiard ball 'imitation of life'.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
The mystical experience is simply the realization of the union of the foreground of existence with it's background. You're attention is still focused on the foreground, which sees a universe composed of atoms changing all the time. When at last you see the foreground of the phenomenal world of 'interaction' in its proper context to its background, your consciousness will become completely transformed. Until then, good luck with those dancing cave wall shadows you call 'interaction'. You are free to go topside at any time to catch a glimpse of the glorious Sun.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I think it makes sense to say that the our senses are the basis for our interaction with the environment. As for consciousness I reckon it's that basic quality of awareness, and when people talk about mystical experience it's about a change in perception rather than consciousness, seeing things in a different way. In other words it's the same information coming in through the senses, but that information is being processed in a different way. It's not all that different to being under the effect of a drug, and of course mystics have been known to use hallucinogens.
Anyway it's interesting to pay close attention to what it's actually like to see, hear, taste, smell and touch, I find that more useful than engaging in a load of metaphysical speculation. When people start reifying consciousness and surrounding it with a load of religious beliefs they quickly lose sight of the actual experience.
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Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
I'm not contradicting anything. This universe is composed of energy which is continually changing form. Matter...atoms, molecules, proteins, amino acids, etc...are NOT conscious, nor do they ever become "living". Matter does not live or die. All energy/matter is interactive via the Fundamental Forces. Some forms of matter changed over time and became more interactive. The most highly interactive forms we call "life". What we call the characteristics of life are none other than complex interactions. As forms became more complex they began interacting with their environment in different ways. Those interactions form the basis of what we call "consciousness". So does consciousness or life actually exist in any tangible way? Sure, we can call those complex interactions life or consciousness, but fundamentally they will always remain one thing...INTERACTION.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Overall I agree with you, but I would say that fundamental interaction is the basis for our senses/consciousness/life and not the other way around. Interaction always comes first before any emergent phenomena.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I think what we can agree on is that notions like "Pure Consciousness" and "Cosmic Consciousness" are religious beliefs rather than anything based on actual experience.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
godnotgod
Thou art That
godnotgod
Thou art That
godnotgod
Thou art That
...at least not based on any of YOUR experiences!
You're just being smug. They are nothing but experiences.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
NO. The mystical experience is beyond the senses. Why? Because mystics throughout the ages have come to the realization that the senses are unreliable, and so seek and find an experience not governed by them. You obviously have not done so, and are not qualified to comment on the mystical experience.
'Nothing we see or hear is perfect, and yet there, in the midst of all the imperfection, lies Perfect Reality!'
Shunryu Suzuki
The five colors blind the eye.
The five tones deafen the ear.
The five flavors dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Precious things lead one astray.
Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.
He lets go of that and chooses this.
Lao-Tzu
Tao Te Ching: Verse 12
You are way, way off in associating the effects of drugs with the mystical experience. Both the drug effects and ordinary consciousness are CONDITIONED STATES OF AWARENESS. The mystical experience is an UNCONDITIONED STATE OF AWARENESS. Because it is, it sees things as they actually are, rather than how drugs and ordinary conditioned awareness says they are. The senses can and do give false information, and as such, are unreliable when it comes to ascertaining the true nature of Reality. They are designed to navigate our physical environment, and do a satisfactory job for the most part, but can many times mislead us.
Your attempt to associate drugs with the mystical experience is akin to the moralist/religionist wagging his finger about a non-existent Devil. Stop making things up to buttress up your stagnant backwater Theravadist views.
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Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That's clever!
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Yes, we've sorted it all out quite nicely. Time for a nice cup of tea. 
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Any claims unsupported by logic, reason, or evidence are nonsensical. That's pretty much the category unto which your claims fall.