godnotgod
Thou art That
Is there such a thing as 'part' of the Uni-verse? The Uni-verse is a single event, with all
'things' completely interconnected with everything else. Where do you see 'parts'?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Richard Dawkins Facepalms at Deepak Chopra
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Is there such a thing as 'part' of the Uni-verse? The Uni-verse is a single event, with all
'things' completely interconnected with everything else. Where do you see 'parts'?
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Everything is interconnected yes, but much like a tree, there are the roots, the branches and the leaves which interact in different ways. Humans interact differently than trees...in a more complex manner. A tree interacts with the Sun and the Earth simultaneously. In that way a tree is interconnected and so are we. It is precisely because of those interactions that everything is interconnected.
I don't have time to read the 1,800 posts in this thread, but I think there might be one interesting idea related to Chopra's notion of cells having consciousness. At what level of brain hierarchy does consciousness develop? Is it in only some part of the brain ? How many cells are needed to create that consciousness... thousands, millions, 100, do we know? It is an interesting question, indeed! Any neuroscientists on-board?
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Cells don't have consciousness. Cells have their own ways of interacting. Cells don't create consciousness either. The cumulative effect of many complex interactions gives us that feeling of consciousness. The real question would be how many interactions are required to generate that feeling of consciousness.
godnotgod
Thou art That
But roots, branches and leaves are not 'parts' in the same way that there are parts to an automobile. The universe is not a mechanical device, is it? That is to say, it was not made, but was evolved.
Human interaction is 100% the activity of the universe. Only the ego says that 'I' am the doer. A human is not a part of the universe; he is a manifestation of the universe, a total action of the universe, just as a wave is a total action of the ocean.
It is precisely because of interconnectivity, or One-ness, that interaction is possible.
godnotgod
Thou art That
No, the real question is how do material cells create non-material consciousness? At what point does that occur, and why, and how? Just to say that this occurs is a leap of faith, and not a scientific theory.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
The result of a simple Google search...
"Interconnectivity refers to the state or quality of being connected together. The concept is widely used in various fields such as biology, network theory, and ecology. It can be further elaborated as all parts of a system, which interact with one another and cannot be analyzed if considered alone."
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Material cells interact in complex ways thereby generating that feeling of consciousness. Consciousness is an illusion generated by complex interactions, that is all.
Why do people experience different levels of consciousness ? Why did Newton develop the Calculus which deals with rates of change ? Why did Einstein develop Special and General Relativity ? Were their neurons and synapses more highly developed than other physicists of their time? What about Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad?
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
When an interactive system...a brain for example...is physically altered or damaged, it affects those complex interactions which give us that feeling of consciousness. Chemical compounds such as drugs can cause those interactions to change thereby changing how we feel or how we act. These changes in our interactive states correspond directly to our levels of "consciousness". If someone hits you over the head hard enough, the damage sustained may be enough to cause you to lose consciousness altogether. In other words, those complex interactions in your brain were forcibly altered or damaged such that it caused you to interact diferently. Everyone interacts a little differently.
godnotgod
Thou art That
But then something is already in place that senses this 'feeling of consciousness', and that is consciousness itself. And if it is an illusion, what is it that knows it to be an illusion? Obviously it has to be something that knows the difference between illusion and reality, correct? But, if consciousness is, as you claim, an illusion, how can an illusion actually know anything at all, let alone what reality is?
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
Or that the brain is simply a receptor of non-local consciousness, and it is the receptor that is damaged, no longer able to correctly receive and process signals from non-local consciousness. That the brain is such a receptor, and transmitter, capable of non-local signal processing, has been scientifically demonstrated in a now classic experiment, that has since been replicated many times around the world:
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
They don't, they experience different states of mind - it's much more to do with how you feel. Consciousness is just the basic function or quality of awareness, our state of mind determines how we perceive the information coming in. People love to reify consciousness and make it all mystical but that's about religious belief rather than experience.
Some people are more intelligent or creative than others of course.
Last edited by a moderator:
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I think that is one of his sillier ideas.
godnotgod
Thou art That
We can think of different levels of consciousness as degrees of wakefulness, or a darkened room gradually illuminated more and more by a light source. As the room becomes more and more illuminated, details become more and more apparent. The dream-sleep level of consciousness, for example, is not aware of the waking state, and the waking state (Identification) is not aware of the next level, that of self-transcendence, but each higher level is aware of the lower levels.
godnotgod
Thou art That
He is only reflecting this idea from the physicist Freeman Dyson, who said:
“It is remarkable that mind enters into our awareness of nature on two separate levels. At the highest level, the level of human consciousness, our minds are somehow directly aware of the complicated flow of electrical and chemical patterns in our brains. At the lowest level, the level of single atoms and electrons, the mind of an observer is again involved in the description of events. Between lies the level of molecular biology, where mechanical models are adequate and mind appears to be irrelevant. But I, as a physicist, cannot help suspecting that there is a logical connection between the two ways in which mind appears in my universe. I cannot help thinking that our awareness of our own brains has something to do with the process which we call "observation" in atomic physics. That is to say, I think our consciousness is not just a passive epiphenomenon carried along by the chemical events in our brains, but is an active agent forcing the molecular complexes to make choices between one quantum state and another. In other words, mind is already inherent in every electron, and the processes of human consciousness differ only in degree but not in kind from the processes of choice between quantum states which we call "chance" when they are made by electrons.”
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
This doesn't tell us anything about what consciousness actually is though. Sure the brain is a receptor, but what is it that the brain is actually doing? It is interacting in a complex manner with external forces. The brain is not "conscious", matter is neither conscious or living, it is highly interactive. It is that ability to interact which is either reduced or enhanced. If my eyes are damaged, my ability to interact with light is impaired. If my hearing is damaged, my ability to interact with sound vibration is impaired.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
But this doesn't tell us anything about what "wakefulness" even is. So consciousness is a form of wakefulness, so what?....then what is wakefulness? I'll tell you... It is another level or degree of interaction. That room is illuminated by what? Electromagnetism...Fundamental Interaction.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Something is identifying illusion as 'illusion', because it already knows the difference between illusion and reality. What is that something? You are identifying the behavior of neurons as being an illusion called 'consciousness'; but what are you using to do so, if not consciousness itself? Do you see the dilemma?
You previously stated that consciousness and interaction are one and the same, but if consciousness is illusory, as you claim, then so is interaction.
Last edited: