Richard Dawkins lies

[InvestigateTruth]

What i know that both are fixed,freshwater never become salt and the salt water never become fresh and both do interact.

What do you mean by 'Fixed'?

Do you mean the relative volume of Salt water and sweet water always remain constant?

Or the concentration of Salt remains Fixed in salty water and the PH level of Sweet water remains always Neutral?

Because I think these details are important. If these are not fixed then that means small amounts of Salt is transferred, which in that case this does not correspond with the verse.
Moreover If God ordains a Boundary not to be transgressed, then none among His creatures can break this boundary. So if by swimming or other reasons some of the Salt is transferred through the boundary then it means this natural phenomena is not what the verse is talking about.

 

[FearGod]

What do you mean by 'Fixed'?

Do you mean the relative volume of Salt water and sweet water always remain constant?

Or the concentration of Salt remains Fixed in salty water and the PH level of Sweet water remains always Neutral?

Becuse I think these details are important. If these are not fixed then that means small amounts of Salt is transfered, which in that case this does not corrospond with the verse.
Moreover If God ordains a Boundry not to be transgressed, then none among His creatures can break this bounary. So if by swiming or other reasons some of the Salt is transfered through the boundary then it means this natural phenamena is not what the verse is talking about.

Each body of water has its own fixed property. :yes:

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Each body of water has its own fixed property. :yes:

OK.
But I think it is reasonable to say that if a group of scientists get together and want to transfer some of the salty water through 'the Boundary' to the sweet water, then they can do that, don't you think so?

 

[FearGod]

OK.
But I think it is reasonable to say that if a group of scientists get together and want to transfer some of the salty water through 'the Boundary' to the sweet water, then they can do that, don't you think so?

i can't understand whats your point.

God made it clear that no one will take over the other,it isn't about bringing 1 gallon from the salt water to the fresh water.

There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other). (55:20)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i can't understand whats your point.

God made it clear that no one will take over the other,it isn't about bringing 1 gallon from the salt water to the fresh water.

There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other). (55:20)

No, I am not talking about 55:20. Talking about 25:53 as in OP:

"It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed." 25:53

Another Translation:

"And He is the One who merges the two bodies of water. This is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. And He made between them a partition and an inviolable barrier." 25:53

al-Furqan 25:53

The point is clear. If its forbidden to be passed or it is inviolable, then not even scientists should be able to make the water pass through it. Which obviously is not the case

 

[FearGod]

No, I am not talking about 55:20. Talking about 25:53 as in OP:

"It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed." 25:53

Another Translation:

"And He is the One who merges the two bodies of water. This is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. And He made between them a partition and an inviolable barrier." 25:53

al-Furqan 25:53

The point is clear. If its forbidden to be passed or it is inviolable, then not even scientists should be able to make the water pass through it. Which obviously is not the case

What a silly hypothesis.

God isn't challenging us to try to break the barrier,but he shows us just one evidence to believe on his existence which is still denied by disbelievers even though it is very clear and obvious.

Compare it with the verse which says that human and jin can go through the outer space but by God's permission which means that they will do.

O tribe of jinn and of men, if you are able to pass through the confines of heaven and earth, pass through them! You shall not pass through except with an authority. (55:33)

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Or rocket fuel.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

God isn't challenging us to try to break the barrier,but he shows us just one evidence to believe on his existence which is still denied by disbelievers even though it is very clear and obvious.

And you think InvestigateTruth's hypothesis is silly?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What a silly hypothesis.

God isn't challenging us to try to break the barrier,but he shows us just one evidence to believe on his existence which is still denied by disbelievers even though it is very clear and obvious.

Compare it with the verse which says that human and jin can go through the outer space but by God's permission which means that they will do.

O tribe of jinn and of men, if you are able to pass through the confines of heaven and earth, pass through them! You shall not pass through except with an authority. (55:33)

No, the word used in the verse is "حِجْرًا مَحْجُورًا
(A Barrier that cannot be passed)


You need to compare it with 25:22, that has exact same phrase:

"On the day when they shall see the angels, no good news shall there be for the guilty ones, and they shall cry out, "A barrier that cannot be passed!" 25:22

This barrier is same between Heaven and Hell perhaps. It cannot be passed!
The natural phenomena you proposed can be passed! So sorry, it doesn't work.

 

[FearGod]

No, the word used in the verse is "حِجْرًا مَحْجُورًا
(A Barrier that cannot be passed)


You need to compare it with 25:22, that has exact same phrase:

"On the day when they shall see the angels, no good news shall there be for the guilty ones, and they shall cry out, "A barrier that cannot be passed!" 25:22

This barrier is same between Heaven and Hell perhaps. It cannot be passed!
The natural phenomena you proposed can be passed! So sorry, it doesn't work.

The barrier is to separate 2 things apart in a fixed area but doesn't stop movement from the outside.

Now in your example for criminals going to hell or to jail,then yes once they entered then they are trapped but still people from outside can still enter and trap,another example 2 bathrooms,male and a female with a barrier between both,such a barrier won't stop the flow of men and women in and out but inside both are trapped in their own fixed area (freshwater and salt water don't mix but they do flow).

Hope that is not hard to understand and clear enough.

 

[Falvlun]

God isn't challenging us to try to break the barrier,but he shows us just one evidence to believe on his existence which is still denied by disbelievers even though it is very clear and obvious.

Next time God wants to make it very clear and obvious that he is doing something, then he needs to make sure that whatever it is that he is doing can't be accounted for by basic physical properties.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Next time God wants to make it very clear and obvious that he is doing something, then he needs to make sure that whatever it is that he is doing can't be accounted for by basic physical properties.

:yes:
Exactly my point earlier. If you're trying to communicate, make it clear. If you're not, don't be surprised if the message isn't heard.

 

[Ouroboros]

True that. If a "perfect designer" wants to be known by everyone, he (or she or it?) shouldn't go through such trouble to make everything look like it evolved naturally... unless the "perfect designer" is Nature itself.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The barrier is to separate 2 things apart in a fixed area but doesn't stop movement from the outside.

Now in your example for criminals going to hell or to jail,then yes once they entered then they are trapped but still people from outside can still enter and trap,another example 2 bathrooms,male and a female with a barrier between both,such a barrier won't stop the flow of men and women in and out but inside both are trapped in their own fixed area (freshwater and salt water don't mix but they do flow).

Hope that is not hard to understand and clear enough.

Well if it makes sense to you then its fine. To me that's not what the verse is talking about. Look at the context, some verses before and after. And never forget only God knows its interpretation, so you can be wronge.

 

[FearGod]

Well if it makes sense to you then its fine. To me that's not what the verse is talking about. Look at the context, some verses before and after. And never forget only God knows its interpretation, so you can be wronge.

it's normal that you don't want to understand because you think that only Bahaullah did know its interprtation and atheists are just stubborn and i believe that the verse is very clear and understood to everyone.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

it's normal that you don't want to understand because you think that only Bahaullah did know its interprtation and atheists are just stubborn and i believe that the verse is very clear and understood to everyone.

What a pile of tripe. 'Atheists are just stubborn'. Your supposition is that there is clear proof of God, and atheists ignore it because they don't want to be proven wrong?

Never mind that we could repent, become religious and believe in something clearly proven (and I'm assuming it's naturally your version of God that is clearly correct) and be granted eternal salvation/life/whatever carrot is being used?



Your understanding of my intellectual position is astounding. No, I don't mean that as a compliment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

it's normal that you don't want to understand because you think that only Bahaullah did know its interprtation

It's not I just think. Quran Prophecied about Baha'u'llah and the Interpretation of Quran to come:

"a Messenger from God, reciting pages purified, therein true Books." 98:2-3
al-Baiyinah 98:3

' رَسُولٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ يَتْلُو صُحُفًا مُّطَهَّرَةً فِيهَا كُتُبٌ قَيِّمَةٌ'

Noticing, the Word here is 'Books'. Plural of Book (كُتُب&#1612 To Prophet Muhammad God revealed only One Book. The Holy Quran.
To Baha'u'llah many Books. Baha'u'llah revealed them in pages (Sohof)



And As Quran said, the interpretation of Quran was to come:

"Now we have brought them a Book explaining it in knowledge, a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe. Do they wait now for aught but its interpretation?− on the day when its interpretation shall come, those who forgot it before will say, ‘There did come to us the apostles of our Lord in truth, have we intercessors to intercede for us? …"(7:53)

هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا تَأْوِيلَهُ يَوْمَ يَأْتِي تَأْوِيلُهُ يَقُولُ الَّذِينَ نَسُوهُ مِن قَبْلُ قَدْ جَاءَتْ رُسُلُ رَبِّنَا بِالْحَقِّ فَهَل لَّنَا مِن شُفَعَاءَ فَيَشْفَعُوا لَنَا أَوْ نُرَدُّ فَنَعْمَلَ غَيْرَ الَّذِي كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ قَدْ خَسِرُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَفْتَرُونَ

Thank you God for fulfilling your Promise. You do not fail to fulfill your promise.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

i can't understand whats your point.

God made it clear that no one will take over the other,it isn't about bringing 1 gallon from the salt water to the fresh water.

There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other). (55:20)

This is like saying you can't mix red and blue paint. Because there are definite lines that seperate what makes red and blue different colors. Its simply wrong. It was an attempt by flawed human reasoning to explain why the rivers aren't salty but the ocean is. There are varying degrees of salinity in several different oceans and bodies of water all around the world. Generally the change is gradual but in places where two bodies of water with differing salinity levels collide then there is an obvious and specific point where they meet. It doesn't mean that the water isn't mixing but it means that it hasn't mixed yet. All of the water that is fresh that hasn't mixed yet on that border just arrived. The water molecules that have been there for a while have mixed and been swept away elsewhere.