Richard Dawkins lies

[challupa]

How could a body of water ever have a barrier? Makes no sense. Water is fluid and while salt and fresh do not immediately mix, they do mix eventually. This would not happen if there was a barrier. So Dawkins didn't lie.

 

[Sculelos]

The quran never said that the earth is flat,that guy in the TV program is talking nonsense.

I agree with you. "Spread out like a Carpet" does not mean flat.

God spread out the Heavens and the Earth aka World which is also sometimes translated as Earth instead of World, common mistake.

God made the World as flat as a double sided Pyramid...

... but since the deluge that pyramid has concaved...

How could a body of water ever have a barrier? Makes no sense. Water is fluid and while salt and fresh do not immediately mix, they do mix eventually. This would not happen if there was a barrier. So Dawkins didn't lie.

Short Answer is there is electric current in the Ocean that separates the Salt water from the Fresh water. So there is indeed a natural (aka Electrical) Barrier. Salt Water is more dense then Freshwater so therefore it is attracted to the electrical currents where as fresh water is repelled by the electrical currents. So the water will actually never completely mix in the sea due to the 'Natural Barrier'.

 

[Ingledsva]

Why he intended to lie and fools the audience,for what purpose he is doing so?

Pls watch the video.

He did not lie.

I can see where the early Muslim people might have made the mistake - for instance

I live on an island, just off the mainland which has a huge river. When the river is flowing fast, the fresh water will flow over the top of the seawater for up to twenty miles or so. However, further examination shows that it eventually mixes.

Also observation shows that the river flats have a tide, so salt water is obviously moving into and mixing with the fresh water.

Third, observation would show that there are fresh water plants that do not grow in salt water, and salt water plants that do not grow in fresh, but river flats have plants that have evolved to handle mixed conditions.

The above is simple observation, no science needed.

*

 

[Sculelos]

He did not lie.

I can see where the early Muslim people might have made the mistake - for instance

I live on an island, just off the mainland which has a huge river. When the river is flowing fast, the fresh water will flow over the top of the seawater for up to twenty miles or so. However, further examination shows that it eventually mixes.

Also observation shows that the river flats have a tide, so salt water is obviously moving into and mixing with the fresh water.

Third, observation would show that there are fresh water plants that do not grow in salt water, and salt water plants that do not grow in fresh, but river flats have plants that have evolved to handle mixed conditions.

The above is simple observation, no science needed.

*

It can mix temporarily due to abnormally high water pressures but if you watch it long enough you will notice that it separates again after a time.

 

[yoda89]

[youtube]UBt2XPpJ25I[/youtube]
Richard Dawkins Debates Flying Horses with Muslims - YouTube

:sarcastic

 

[challupa]

He did not lie.

I can see where the early Muslim people might have made the mistake - for instance

I live on an island, just off the mainland which has a huge river. When the river is flowing fast, the fresh water will flow over the top of the seawater for up to twenty miles or so. However, further examination shows that it eventually mixes.

Also observation shows that the river flats have a tide, so salt water is obviously moving into and mixing with the fresh water.

Third, observation would show that there are fresh water plants that do not grow in salt water, and salt water plants that do not grow in fresh, but river flats have plants that have evolved to handle mixed conditions.

The above is simple observation, no science needed.

*

True, when salt water comes up the fresh water rivers you get a tidal bore. good for surfing!!

 

[Ingledsva]

Labuan Cermin (two water lake); Indonesia

The aura is magnificent. The thing that makes Labuan Cermin lake different from other lakes is that the lake has two types of water, freshwater and salt water. That too, you will find both different waters in one area.
Not only that, but both types of organisms also live in the water of this Lake.
Freshwater fish living on the surface of the Lake while salt water fish live in the bottom of the Lake. Surprisingly, both types of water do not get mixed. It can be seen that the sea water and fresh water are separated by layers like clouds. The white muddy layer in the lake is allegedly the result of decomposition basic harbor organisms that trapped. The thickness of the layer of freshwater and saltwater can be changed in accordance with tidal sea water. This natural wonder is still a mystery of how this phenomenon occurs.

The quran didn't mention that saltwater and freshwater never mixed as Dawkins claimed it to be and his stupid advice to bring 2 glasses of water to see how both water will mix is ridiculous.

And he it is who has given freedom of movement to the two great bodies of water – the one sweet and thirst-allaying, and the other salty and bitter – and yet has wrought between them a barrier and a forbidding ban. (25:53)

Yes. This is a very awesome phenomenon. Not a spiritual one but an awesome one. However it is a unique and rare phenomenon very much unlike how the Koran seems to explain it. I can show you litterally millions of accounts where salt and fresh water do mix. For example the body of water less than a mile from where I sit.

Yes, plus the article gives some possible clues as to why it is occurring.

"...famous for its crust rock formation"

"The water soothes the skin. Sometimes it feels like a spring bubbles, and even at some point feels warm. People who wish to go swim are asked be careful with the water flows, because in some places the flows are quite strong and easy to drag people."

" It can be seen that the sea water and fresh water are separated by layers like clouds. The white muddy layer in the lake is allegedly the result of decomposition basic harbor organisms that trapped. The thickness of the layer of freshwater and saltwater can be changed in accordance with tidal sea water."

So we have a crust rock formation, probably bowl shaped, that either doesn't allow vegetation to go anywhere creating the gas that bubbles the excess debris upward, or gas escaping the rock, bubbling the debris upward, where constant fast moving fresh river water forms a layer above, while the heaver salt water drops into the rock bowl forming a saltwater bottom layer, causing the debris and bubbles to get trapped forming a specific "cloudy" layer where salt and fresh water mix with the debris.

Note also that the article says more tourists are coming, and that they like the bubbles they sometimes get, - and the long-time local that says the lake is no longer crystal clear and pristine.

And it becomes obvious that tourist "limbs" are disturbing that layer as they swim, allowing the trapped gas to escape, and allowing the fresh and salt water to mix in a more normal manner.

*

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And it becomes obvious that tourist "limbs" are disturbing that layer as they swim, allowing the trapped gas to escape, and allowing the fresh and salt water to mix in a more normal manner.
*

Which proves, that this place is not what the Quran verse is talking about.:yes:

 

[Ingledsva]

Which proves, that this place is not what the Quran verse is talking about.:yes:

Yep! It is just a rare natural phenomenon.

 

[Ingledsva]

True, when salt water comes up the fresh water rivers you get a tidal bore. good for surfing!!

Not always. We don't get a big enough one here.

I would love to be able to surf on the river.

*

 

[challupa]

Not always. We don't get a big enough one here.

I would love to be able to surf on the river.

*

Truro, Nova Scotia has a good tidal bore but I believe the one in China is the world's largest. Saw Truro's once and it was pretty neat to see when it happened!

 

[FearGod]

Explanation by Dr.Zaghlol for the mysterious phenomenon

[youtube]vnplYi227q0[/youtube]
Fresh water and Salt water in Quran by Dr. Zaghlol El-Naggar_2_clip1.avi - YouTube

 

[Ingledsva]

Explanation by Dr.Zaghlol for the mysterious phenomenon

He said nothing different from what someone up above pointed out.

And he definitely did not prove the Qur'an verse correct.

*

 

[FearGod]

He said nothing different from what someone up above pointed out.

And he definitely did not prove the Qur'an verse correct.

*

How come the verse not correct,the verse exactly shows that both bodies of water go through each other while each keeping it's own charactestics & properties by a barrier made between them.

Whats wrong with the verse ?

 

[danieldemol]

Explanation by Dr.Zaghlol for the mysterious phenomenon

[youtube]vnplYi227q0[/youtube]
Fresh water and Salt water in Quran by Dr. Zaghlol El-Naggar_2_clip1.avi - YouTube

I would have to say that there was definitely some pseudoscience spoken by the professor, however what is interesting from the fact that he spoke about rivers is that for some reason he seems to interpret the verse the same way as Richard Dawkins did (ie as referring to all fresh water not mixing with all salt water as opposed to reffering to a unique case of 2 seas).

If the professor interpreted this as reffering to all salt and fresh waters not just to a unique case, then it is possible Richard Dawkins got his misconception off Muslims themselves and did not invent it in a false attempt to discredit them.

 

[FearGod]

I would have to say that there was definitely some pseudoscience spoken by the professor, however what is interesting from the fact that he spoke about rivers is that for some reason he seems to interpret the verse the same way as Richard Dawkins did (ie as referring to all fresh water not mixing with all salt water as opposed to reffering to a unique case of 2 seas).

If the professor interpreted this as reffering to all salt and fresh waters not just to a unique case, then it is possible Richard Dawkins got his misconception off Muslims themselves and did not invent it in a false attempt to discredit them.

Would you please clarify where is the pseudoscience in his speech ?

 

[danieldemol]

I have decided to post the Ysusf Ali translation here, so that more details which are not always included can be seen;

From Surah 55:
19. He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

20. Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:

21. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?

22. Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

23. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?

Obviously any lake or any river from which pearls and coral don't come can't be the one described in the Qur'an, neither can the polar halocline since the plural word "them" referring to both seas is used with respect to coral and pearl production, and I don't know of any coral which grows in polar regions. The more I think about it, the more I feel doubtful that this refers to any known (physical) natural phenomenan.

 

[danieldemol]

Would you please clarify where is the pseudoscience in his speech ?

There are quite a number of examples, one is his statement that the under ocean freshwater springs do not mix with the surrounding salt water. Obviously if this were the case the freshwater would collect in the ocean around the springs to such an extent that given the thousands of years for which they have been flowing, one could well expect to find a freshwater spot in the ocean perhaps several kilometres in diameter from where the freshwater flowing into the ocean displaced the salt water, however it is positively scientifically known that the fresh water from these underwater springs mixes with surrounding salt water.

If you don't believe me, attend one of these locations with some testing equipment yourself. You will find that as you get further from the spring, the salinity gradually changes becoming more saltier. Don't take my word for it, prove it to yourself.

 

[FearGod]

There are quite a number of examples, one is his statement that the under ocean freshwater springs do not mix with the surrounding salt water. Obviously if this were the case the freshwater would collect in the ocean around the springs to such an extent that given the thousands of years for which they have been flowing, one could well expect to find a freshwater spot in the ocean perhaps several kilometres in diameter from where the freshwater flowing into the ocean displaced the salt water, however it is positively scientifically known that the fresh water from these underwater springs mixes with surrounding salt water.

If you don't believe me, attend one of these locations with some testing equipment yourself. You will find that as you get further from the spring, the salinity gradually changes becoming more saltier. Don't take my word for it, prove it to yourself.

Do you regard your reply an absolute science ?

What is the best brand of refractometer to use ? ,any advice.

 

[danieldemol]

Do you regard your reply an absolute science ?

What is the best brand of refractometer to use ? ,any advice.

I haven't used all of them to know which one is best. Perhaps you should ask that professor which one he used when he tested the salinity around the under ocean springs (or not).

The model on this website would likely do a suitable job: Salinity Refractometer for Reef Aquarium Ocean - Bulk Lot of (100) Units $19.99 each!

Next question.