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Richard Dawkins lies

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I think the video slide at 2:18 is a little unclear, so with the help of google I dug up the original pictorial, I will post it hear just for comment in case it adds anything to the discussion;

halocline_18008.jpg


Here is the picture posted by Odion (I think);

KpmVf.jpg


The thing is, I don't think they are even reference to the same place, as you can see there is no pack ice in the picture, nor in the other one posted from switzerland.

So do Muslims claim the seas don't meet in Switzerland, or in the straight of gibraltar (which seperates Gibraltar and Spain in Europe from Morocco in Africa), or in some undisclosed third location in the photo above, or in all three? I'm confused.

The quran didn't mention specific seas but he shows his power over things that with his power both seas with different charactristics and properties which are in full contact but never mixed as to be just one sea.

That opposing the fact that according to science both water should be mixed while in full contact.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What exactly was he lying about? Can you explain it in your own words?

Why does Richard Dawkins even need to lie in the first place?

it is already explained by the video author and it is up to you to agree with him or to believe that Dawkins was very honest.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The quran didn't mention specific seas but he shows his power over things that with his power both seas with different charactristics and properties which are in full contact but never mixed as to be just one sea.

That opposing the fact that according to science both water should be mixed while in full contact.

I'm confused. What's according to science?
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The quran didn't mention specific seas but he shows his power over things that with his power both seas with different charactristics and properties which are in full contact but never mixed as to be just one sea.

I understand that the Qur'an itself does not list any pairs of seas that do not mix. My question is as follows;

1. Are Muslims posting photos of allegedly non-mixing sea pairs because they believe these sea pairs are an authentic example of what the verse in the Qur'an is talking about?

2. If so could they instead of just posting unlabeled photos, paste some essential related captions such as which sea pairs are shown, and the location of the photos taken to permit independant investigation where resources permit?

That opposing the fact that according to science both water should be mixed while in full contact.

Having sat through various fluid mechanics related courses myself, I can tell you that this is definitely not the case.

Basically a fluid of higher density will sink to the bottom while a fluid of lower density will float to the top. This is why helium enclosed in a balloon will cause the balloon to float above the surrounding oxygen, or why oil floats above water. It follows all the known laws of physics and fluid mechanics etc.

Basically if you boil water, and add salt until the most possible salt is dissolved, then cool the water, some of the salt will drop out. This is because according to the known laws of chemistry etc, the solubility of salt in water declines with a corresponding decline in temperature.

Now a cup is a very small model, over a larger model such as an ocean, it is possible to have greater variation of temperatures at different depths. Therefore if the polar wind chills the upper strata of ocean fluid, the salt drops out of the cold upper strata into a lower strata, this causes a density split between the upper and lower strata, with the strata with more salt being heavier.

All that being said, even though I'm not a fan of Dawkins metaphysical views, to be fair I think that what possibly might have happened here is that rather than willfully ignoring that the statement that the verse is talking about mixing of salt and fresh waters in 2 seas, what may have happened is a combination of Dawkins not having listened to the Muslim assertion carefully enough, coupled with the possibility that as a biological genetics expert, Dawkins may or may not be fully informed regarding the peculiarities of arctic and Mediterranean current flows as it is not his personal area of expertise.

Thus it may be fairer to state that Dawkins did not properly listen to or understand the assertion, and may not have given a properly informed response.

The difference between this and accusing Dawkins of lying is that to know he were lying, we would need to know that he fully heard and understood the assertion, and knew that the response he was giving was fraudulent.

To me I don't think it is fair to make all those assumptions from the limited knowledge in this video.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I understand that the Qur'an itself does not list any pairs of seas that do not mix. My question is as follows;

1. Are Muslims posting photos of allegedly non-mixing sea pairs because they believe these sea pairs are an authentic example of what the verse in the Qur'an is talking about?

2. If so could they instead of just posting unlabeled photos, paste some essential related captions such as which sea pairs are shown, and the location of the photos taken to permit independant investigation where resources permit?



Having sat through various fluid mechanics related courses myself, I can tell you that this is definitely not the case.

Basically a fluid of higher density will sink to the bottom while a fluid of lower density will float to the top. This is why helium enclosed in a balloon will cause the balloon to float above the surrounding oxygen, or why oil floats above water. It follows all the known laws of physics and fluid mechanics etc.

Basically if you boil water, and add salt until the most possible salt is dissolved, then cool the water, some of the salt will drop out. This is because according to the known laws of chemistry etc, the solubility of salt in water declines with a corresponding decline in temperature.

Now a cup is a very small model, over a larger model such as an ocean, it is possible to have greater variation of temperatures at different depths. Therefore if the polar wind chills the upper strata of ocean fluid, the salt drops out of the cold upper strata into a lower strata, this causes a density split between the upper and lower strata, with the strata with more salt being heavier.

All that being said, even though I'm not a fan of Dawkins metaphysical views, to be fair I think that what possibly might have happened here is that rather than willfully ignoring that the statement that the verse is talking about mixing of salt and fresh waters in 2 seas, what may have happened is a combination of Dawkins not having listened to the Muslim assertion carefully enough, coupled with the possibility that as a biological genetics expert, Dawkins may or may not be fully informed regarding the peculiarities of arctic and Mediterranean current flows as it is not his personal area of expertise.

Thus it may be fairer to state that Dawkins did not properly listen to or understand the assertion, and may not have given a properly informed response.

The difference between this and accusing Dawkins of lying is that to know he were lying, we would need to know that he fully heard and understood the assertion, and knew that the response he was giving was fraudulent.

To me I don't think it is fair to make all those assumptions from the limited knowledge in this video.

Sorry but my thread isn't to discuss the phenomenon and who caused it.

The phenomenon is occurring in nature which opposing science and it is up to you to be skeptic about the quran as talking about such phenomenon.

One more phenomenon of 2 body of waters in one area and not mixing found in Indonesia.

Labuan Cermin (two water lake); Indonesia



The aura is magnificent. The thing that makes Labuan Cermin lake different from other lakes is that the lake has two types of water, freshwater and salt water. That too, you will find both different waters in one area.
Not only that, but both types of organisms also live in the water of this Lake.
Freshwater fish living on the surface of the Lake while salt water fish live in the bottom of the Lake. Surprisingly, both types of water do not get mixed. It can be seen that the sea water and fresh water are separated by layers like clouds. The white muddy layer in the lake is allegedly the result of decomposition basic harbor organisms that trapped. The thickness of the layer of freshwater and saltwater can be changed in accordance with tidal sea water. This natural wonder is still a mystery of how this phenomenon occurs.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The phenomenon is occurring in nature which opposing science and it is up to you to be skeptic about the quran as talking about such phenomenon.

Well, this Phenomena is certainly interesting. But the verse of Quran talks about Two seas (or body of water), whereas the example here is not two seas, but One lake that has two layers of waters within it 'on top of each other'.

If this verse of Quran was talking about this Phenomena, don't you think that this verse is inaccurate to describe it?


"And it is He Who has let free the two seas, one palatable and sweet, the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them." (Qur'an 25:53)


Allah does not describe things inaccurate to cause confusions.

Accurate description would be:


And it is He Who has Created a sea, containing Two waters, one palatable and sweet, the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between the two portions.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Well, this Phenomena is certainly interesting. But the verse of Quran talks about Two seas (or body of water), whereas the example here is not two seas, but One lake that has two layers of waters within it 'on top of each other'.

The lake has both,seawater from the ocean and fresh water as the other body of water and both don't mix.

If this verse of Quran was talking about this Phenomena, don't you think that this verse is inaccurate to describe it?


"And it is He Who has let free the two seas, one palatable and sweet, the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them." (Qur'an 25:53)


Allah does not describe things inaccurate to cause confusions.

Accurate description would be:


And it is He Who has Created a sea, containing Two waters, one palatable and sweet, the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between the two portions.

No,you're wrong,it is 2 bodies of water separated by a barrier,each has it's own characteristics and properties.

i don't believe that any human being can describe things better than the creator,but only a little wisdom is needed to understand God's words.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
A little Wisdom? Your statement simply contradicts with Quran:

" .....None knoweth its explanation save Allah" 3:7

You're absolutely wrong.

You're taking the verse of the quran out of context,was it hard for you to quote the whole verse. :shrug:

It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds. (3:7)
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You're absolutely wrong.

You're taking the verse of the quran out of context,was it hard for you to quote the whole verse. :shrug:

It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds. (3:7)

No, It wasn't necessary to quote the whole verse. I gave the verse number, anybody can go and read the whole. Still the point holds. See the underline part.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No, It wasn't necessary to quote the whole verse. I gave the verse number, anybody can go and read the whole. Still the point holds. See the underline part.

of course the only one knowing the real meaning and interpretation of the quran is the author of the book,it is then return to us if we want to understand it or to use it in other ways as some atheists do with the verses of the quran.

The 2 bodies of water is a real example,while the interpretation is very clear others will try to interpret it in different way as you had already did.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry but my thread isn't to discuss the phenomenon
I personally feel that if you are going to say it opposes science, it is fair game to provide a contrary opinion with an explanation of why.

...and who caused it.
I didn't say who caused it, some people believe that God causes scientific phenomena to occur, others disagree. I left "who" caused it out of my reply all together.

...it is up to you to be skeptic about the quran as talking about such phenomenon.
I'm not really skeptic to be honest with you, perhaps the Qur'an was using the halocline as a metaphor to allude to the difference in knowledge between the meeting of believers and non-believers, they don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive claims imo.

I still think it makes sense though to study natural phenomena in a knowledgeable manner, hence my call for the relevant captional information.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
of course the only one knowing the real meaning and interpretation of the quran is the author of the book,it is then return to us if we want to understand it or to use it in other ways as some atheists do with the verses of the quran.

The 2 bodies of water is a real example,while the interpretation is very clear others will try to interpret it in different way as you had already did.

Let's go back to basics of quran. There are two verses: clear and symbolic (Mutishaihat)

How do we know if a verse is clear or Mutishabihat?
Those that are clear, can be interpreted in just one way.
But the mutishabihat are those that can be interpreted in different ways. Therefore it requires interpretation (Taweel).
Taweel is different from Tafseer. Taweel means if a verse can be interpreted in more than one way, choosing the correct interpretation.
With all that said, since the verse in question can be interpreted in different ways, that would put the verse on the Cathegory of Mutishabihat verses.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
We know that salt water and fresh water mix. Rain for example is fresh water. This rains into the sea and becomes salty again. How does Islam explain the ocean that is only fed from FRESHWATER SOURCES not drying up and being replaced purely by fresh water?
 

Sculelos

Active Member
We know that salt water and fresh water mix. Rain for example is fresh water. This rains into the sea and becomes salty again. How does Islam explain the ocean that is only fed from FRESHWATER SOURCES not drying up and being replaced purely by fresh water?

He was not implying that Salt Water and Fresh Water don't mix, he was saying that there was 7 seas separated by a natural barrier as observed by pretty much everyone who looks so this passage of the Koran is simply a correct Observation of Science.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
He was not implying that Salt Water and Fresh Water don't mix, he was saying that there was 7 seas separated by a natural barrier as observed by pretty much everyone who looks so this passage of the Koran is simply a correct Observation of Science.
Except it goes on to say that salt and fresh water do not mix. which is not true.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The phenomenon is occurring in nature which opposing science and it is up to you to be skeptic about the quran as talking about such phenomenon.

I'll ask again. What is it you think is 'opposing science'? This is a strange turn of phrase. Are you in fact suggesting it's currently unexplainable by science, which is at least a turn of phrase with meaning, if incorrect in this case.
 
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