Richard Dawkins lies

[sojourner]

Dawkins was correct. The phenomenon isn't a barrier -- it's an area of mixture.

 

[Alceste]

Wait just a second! Does Islam teach that salt water and fresh water don't mix??? What??? Holy hell! Why is that religion still around???

 

[Poeticus]

Wait just a second! Does Islam teach that salt water and fresh water don't mix??? What??? Holy hell! Why is that religion still around???

opcorn:

 

[LuisDantas]

Wait just a second! Does Islam teach that salt water and fresh water don't mix??? What??? Holy hell! Why is that religion still around???

I am fairly certain that it (or the Quran and any Hadiths) do not teach such a thing.

I do, however, have little doubt that there are Muslims around who will attempt to believe in that under specific circunstances, particularly if they involve some perception of "defense against Atheism".

 

[Sha'irullah]

I am fairly certain that it (or the Quran and any Hadiths) do not teach such a thing.

I do, however, have little doubt that there are Muslims around who will attempt to believe in that under specific circunstances, particularly if they involve some perception of "defense against Atheism".

Oh Luis you would be surprised what the Qur'an teaches . I can assure you of this

 

[Agnostic75]

The self created universe is a universe that can create itself without the need for a creator.

Hawking Says Universe Created Itself

By "creator," I assume that you mean a conscious, self-aware being who is able to communicate with humans in their own languages. If that is what you mean, there is not any valid science that says that the Big Bang had to have been caused by the kind of force that many people call God.

I believe that a conscious, self-aware God is plausible, but I also believe that eternal, naturalistic energy is plausible. Such energy might have the same "creative" attributes as the God of the Bible does regarding causing the Big Bang to occur, but lack consciousness, and self-awareness like humans have, and like God supposedly has, and lacks the ability to have audible conversations with humans in their own languages.

What about the possibility of other universes?

What about the possibility of the existence of more than one God?

What about the possibility that aliens brought life to earth?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The waters do mix. The rivers pour into the ocean and the fresh water is mixed with the salt water. What you get is brakish water that then mixes with the ocean. If rivers couldn't go into the ocean then the world would be flooded and the ocean would be ever draining.

Richard Dawkins is correct in this matter. I don't agree with all of his points but I do like him. He isn't really an ******* like a lot of people think. He lacks tact in his opinions.

 

[Breathe]

I am fairly certain that it (or the Quran and any Hadiths) do not teach such a thing.

I do, however, have little doubt that there are Muslims around who will attempt to believe in that under specific circunstances, particularly if they involve some perception of "defense against Atheism".

"And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them."​

۞ (وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى مَرَجَ ٱلۡبَحۡرَيۡنِ هَـٰذَا عَذۡبٌ۬ فُرَاتٌ۬ وَهَـٰذَا مِلۡحٌ أُجَاجٌ۬ وَجَعَلَ بَيۡنَہُمَا بَرۡزَخً۬ا وَحِجۡرً۬ا مَّحۡجُورً۬ا (٥٣
​

And it is He who has mixed the two seas: this, sweet ond (sic) thirst quenching; that, saltish ond bitter; and hath placed between the twain a barrier and a great partition complete. (53) - Abdul Daryabadi

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. (53) - Dr. Mohsin

He is the One who joined the two seas, so as this is sweet, very sweet, and this is bitter, very bitter, and made between them a buffer and an insurmountable barrier. (53) - Mufti Taqi Usman

And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them. (53) - Pickthall

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: one palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. (53) - Yusuf Ali

And He is the One who merges the two seas; this is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. And He made between them a partition and an inviolable enclosure. - Free-Minds Translation

53. And it is He who merged the two seas; this one fresh and sweet, and that one salty and bitter; and He placed between them a barrier, and an impassable boundary. - ClearQuran.com

This makes it kind of confusing in English, though. I don't know about the Arabic.

1) God merges the "two seas":
a) fresh and sweet
b) salty and bitter
2) God places a boundary between them
3) the two don't pass this boundary

I've seen three arguments used for it.

1) They don't (initially) mix due, usually with pictures like this in their minds:

But they do mix later on.

2) It's about the two 'seas' of people, because of the previous verse:

So, (O Prophet,) do not obey the infidels, and strive against them with it (the Qur’an), in utmost endeavor. (52) He is the One who joined the two seas, so as this is sweet, very sweet, and this is bitter, very bitter, and made between them a buffer and an insurmountable barrier. (53)

So "as you can see with two types of water (two seas? river and oceans?) not mixing, do not mix with the disbelievers (nb: remember how they weren't exactly on good terms), they like are bitter water (dangerous to drink/unpleasant?), you are sweet water".

3) They don't mix, because no science.

 

[FearGod]

"And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them."

​

۞ (وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى مَرَجَ ٱلۡبَحۡرَيۡنِ هَـٰذَا عَذۡبٌ۬ فُرَاتٌ۬ وَهَـٰذَا مِلۡحٌ أُجَاجٌ۬ وَجَعَلَ بَيۡنَہُمَا بَرۡزَخً۬ا وَحِجۡرً۬ا مَّحۡجُورً۬ا (٥٣


And it is He who has mixed the two seas: this, sweet ond (sic) thirst quenching; that, saltish ond bitter; and hath placed between the twain a barrier and a great partition complete. (53) - Abdul Daryabadi

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. (53) - Dr. Mohsin

He is the One who joined the two seas, so as this is sweet, very sweet, and this is bitter, very bitter, and made between them a buffer and an insurmountable barrier. (53) - Mufti Taqi Usman

And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them. (53) - Pickthall

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: one palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. (53) - Yusuf Ali

And He is the One who merges the two seas; this is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. And He made between them a partition and an inviolable enclosure. - Free-Minds Translation

53. And it is He who merged the two seas; this one fresh and sweet, and that one salty and bitter; and He placed between them a barrier, and an impassable boundary. - ClearQuran.com

This makes it kind of confusing in English, though. I don't know about the Arabic.

1) God merges the "two seas":
a) fresh and sweet
b) salty and bitter
2) God places a boundary between them
3) the two don't pass this boundary

I've seen three arguments used for it.

1) They don't (initially) mix due, usually with pictures like this in their minds:

But they do mix later on.

2) It's about the two 'seas' of people, because of the previous verse:

So, (O Prophet,) do not obey the infidels, and strive against them with it (the Qur’an), in utmost endeavor. (52) He is the One who joined the two seas, so as this is sweet, very sweet, and this is bitter, very bitter, and made between them a buffer and an insurmountable barrier. (53)

So "as you can see with two types of water (two seas? river and oceans?) not mixing, do not mix with the disbelievers (nb: remember how they weren't exactly on good terms), they like are bitter water (dangerous to drink/unpleasant?), you are sweet water".

3) They don't mix, because no science.

Good addition to the topic,thanks Odion.

Yes as we know that salt water and fresh water should be mixed even if they are different in density but finally they should mix.(That what science says)

im just surprised that some are ignorants about this fact and not able yet to understand the power of god which works beyond science.

 

[Breathe]

and not able yet to understand the power of god which works beyond science.

Would God's will not be what science finds?

 

[Agnostic75]

The self created universe is a universe that can create itself without the need for a creator.

Hawking Says Universe Created Itself

By "creator," I assume that you mean a conscious, self-aware being who is able to communicate with humans in their own languages. If that is what you mean, there is not any valid science that says that the Big Bang had to have been caused by the kind of force that many people call God.

I believe that a conscious, self-aware God is plausible, but I also believe that eternal, naturalistic energy is plausible. Such energy might have the same "creative" attributes as the God of the Bible does regarding causing the Big Bang to occur, but lack consciousness, and self-awareness like humans have, and like God supposedly has, and lacks the ability to have audible conversations with humans in their own languages.

I'm just surprised that some are ignorants about this fact and not able yet to understand the power of god which works beyond science.

What power of god works beyond science?

What about the possibility of other universes?

What about the possibility that aliens brought life to earth?

Why must god be the god of the Koran?

Why must there be only one god?

 

[Leftimies]

You people are nuts lol :slap:

We all know reality in it's all aspects knows only boundless infinity :yes: there is no such silly things as beginning or end. Time itself builds on the constant change of the present moment - the differences in physical realm that separated before from now make up the past; differences that could separate now from what is yet to come make up the future possibilities.

I wouldn't go as far as to call Richard Dawkins a liar even though I don't like all the aspects of this particular man. He spoke the truth here. Besides, I am a big time fan of the Bill Maher Show )(

 

[Falvlun]

Good addition to the topic,thanks Odion.

Yes as we know that salt water and fresh water should be mixed even if they are different in density but finally they should mix.(That what science says)

im just surprised that some are ignorants about this fact and not able yet to understand the power of god which works beyond science.

If you agree that the salt and fresh water do in fact mix, then why do you think that Dawkins is a liar for pointing that out?

 

[FearGod]

If you agree that the salt and fresh water do in fact mix, then why do you think that Dawkins is a liar for pointing that out?

Because simply he knows that the quran mentioned the 2 seas and the barrier between both and not just mixing salty and fresh water .

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Because simply he knows that the quran mentioned the 2 seas and the barrier between both and not just mixing salty and fresh water .

How about this, then? We judge the claim he makes using reason and evidence, and don't simply assume every thing he says is gospel (so to speak).

 

[Falvlun]

Because simply he knows that the quran mentioned the 2 seas and the barrier between both and not just mixing salty and fresh water .

So are you saying that a salty sea and a freshwater sea exists with a barrier between them preventing mixing?

And as Odion pointed out, the whole thing appeared to be allegorical anyway, since it's about two different kinds of people and not literal seas.

Your argument seems to be that since Dawkins suggested mixing a salt and fresh water to test this hypothesis, rather than two seas, he is a liar. But no, that's simply how science works: experiment on the small scale to extrapolate to the big scale. If it's true that salt and fresh water will mix in a bowl, then that's good evidence to indicate that salt and fresh water seas will in fact mix.

That's not lying. That's science.

 

[FearGod]

So are you saying that a salty sea and a freshwater sea exists with a barrier between them preventing mixing?

And as Odion pointed out, the whole thing appeared to be allegorical anyway, since it's about two different kinds of people and not literal seas.

Your argument seems to be that since Dawkins suggested mixing a salt and fresh water to test this hypothesis, rather than two seas, he is a liar. But no, that's simply how science works: experiment on the small scale to extrapolate to the big scale. If it's true that salt and fresh water will mix in a bowl, then that's good evidence to indicate that salt and fresh water seas will in fact mix.

That's not lying. That's science.

We know that the salty water and the fresh water do mix,but that is not the issue in the quran as it says the 2 seas don't mix

Bring a bowel and try to separate the salty water from the fresh water in the one bowel similar to what we see in the 2 seas.

Saying mix 2 glasses of water won't explain the case of the 2 seas,so it is one of 2,
liar or idiot

 

[ArtieE]

We know that the salty water and the fresh water do mix,but that is not the issue in the quran as it says the 2 seas don't mix

"Muslim apologists believe that Surah 25:53 of the Qur’an is scientifically accurate. They conclude that since the process was unknown to humankind during the time of Prophet Muhammad, this verse (and the Qur’an as a whole) is revealed by Allah ... This article will prove that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. Also it will prove that a layman could make a better guess than the allegedly divine author of the Qur'an." Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

 

[Falvlun]

We know that the salty water and the fresh water do mix,but that is not the issue in the quran as it says the 2 seas don't mix

Bring a bowel and try to separate the salty water from the fresh water in the one bowel similar to what we see in the 2 seas.

Saying mix 2 glasses of water won't explain the case of the 2 seas,so it is one of 2,
liar or idiot

I am really not understanding how it is lying or idiocy to show fresh and salty water mixing on the small scale (in a glass or bowl) and extrapolating that to the large scale (seas).

I am still unsure of what your position is: Do you really think that there is some salty sea and fresh water sea that won't mix somewhere?

 

[FearGod]

I am really not understanding how it is lying or idiocy to show fresh and salty water mixing on the small scale (in a glass or bowl) and extrapolating that to the large scale (seas).

I am still unsure of what your position is: Do you really think that there is some salty sea and fresh water sea that won't mix somewhere?

Yes each sea won't mix and each will keep its own density & temp.

How can two seas not mix?