Riddle of the beginning solved without god?

[shawn001]

wizard, we know there was a big bang since we have the actual pictures of the light left over from it, before any stars or galaxies existed at all.

WMAP 1 Year Mission Results Press Release

Scientists Cook Up Hottest 'Soup' Ever

The matter reached a searing 4 trillion degrees -- the same temperature reached just fractions of a second after the Big Bang.


Scientists Cook Up Hottest 'Soup' Ever : Discovery News

 

[PolyHedral]

"There is no "both at same time"..... "

Yes there is in QM, which is how everything works on the smallest scales.

As Feymann says in his wonderful lectures, electrons don't exactly act like particles, and don't exactly act like waves, so we should stop saying that they're either. They're completely strange things that we aren't familiar with, so we should stop with all this talk of things being in two places at the same time when the things in question can't even "be in a place," because that's not how they work.

 

[The Wizard]

In QM and physics

"There is no "both at same time"..... "

Yes there is in QM, which is how everything works on the smallest scales.

We actually don't fully understand reality for a lot of reasons, other then how we see it now with eyes that have evolved. Would reality be different if you could see in say microwave? Reality, might be the same but your persception of it would change.

There is more going on then meets the eyes.

The universe might also be all holographic, which is one theory that has been around now for quite sometime.

So you are basically content with everything that can just sort of "twinkle" into existing and not existing at the same time, depending on when it is convienient...

I didn't know science was "objectively agnostic towards reality and existence". Very well. Suit yourself...

 

[Copernicus]

As Feymann says in his wonderful lectures, electrons don't exactly act like particles, and don't exactly act like waves, so we should stop saying that they're either. They're completely strange things that we aren't familiar with, so we should stop with all this talk of things being in two places at the same time when the things in question can't even "be in a place," because that's not how they work.

That is a really good point. The problem, though, is that people want to understand what it is. The only possible way to do that is by relating it to human experience. Particles and waves refer to concepts that we can easily grasp through experience with natural phenomena. When someone says they are neither, then the natural expectation is for a third metaphor--something that brings us closer to grasping what it is that we are talking about. Every time a physicist talks about quantum theory to a lay audience, we get a new load--er, wave--of metaphors. And those waves often interfere with each other, producing strange patterns in the mind.

 

[shawn001]

As Feymann says in his wonderful lectures, electrons don't exactly act like particles, and don't exactly act like waves, so we should stop saying that they're either. They're completely strange things that we aren't familiar with, so we should stop with all this talk of things being in two places at the same time when the things in question can't even "be in a place," because that's not how they work.

I know what your saying here, but its trying to explain some of this to wizard in a way he might get it.

Wizard, look up and study virtual particles in a vacuum.

Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing. Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called "virtual particle" pairs are known as "quantum fluctuations." Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time.

ASP: A Universe from Nothing

I also posted above Brian Greene explaining some of QM theory. Wizard should watch them, so he might understand a little better what we are talking about here.

 

[shawn001]

That is a really good point. The problem, though, is that people want to understand what it is. The only possible way to do that is by relating it to human experience. Particles and waves refer to concepts that we can easily grasp through experience with natural phenomena. When someone says they are neither, then the natural expectation is for a third metaphor--something that brings us closer to grasping what it is that we are talking about. Every time a physicist talks about quantum theory to a lay audience, we get a new load--er, wave--of metaphors. And those waves often interfere with each other, producing strange patterns in the mind.

" Every time a physicist talks about quantum theory to a lay audience, we get a new load--er, wave--of metaphors. And those waves often interfere with each other, producing strange patterns in the mind."

LOL

 

[shawn001]

Hopefully he watches this

The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap


Nova - The Fabric of The Cosmos Quantum Leap

"Join Brian Greene on a wild ride into the weird realm of quantum physics, which governs the universe on the tiniest of scales. Greene brings quantum mechanics to life in a nightclub like no other, where objects pop in and out of existence, and things over here can affect others over there, instantaneously and without anything crossing the space between them. A century ago, during the initial shots in the quantum revolution, the best minds of a generation—including Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr—squared off in a battle for the soul of physics. How could the rules of the quantum world, which work so well to describe the behavior of individual atoms and their components, conflict so dramatically with the everyday rules that govern people, planets, and galaxies?

Quantum mechanics may be counterintuitive, but it's one of the most successful theories in the history of science, making predictions that have been confirmed to better than one part in a billion, while also launching the technological advances at the heart of modern life, like computers and cell phones. But even today, even with such profound successes, the debate still rages over what quantum mechanics implies for the true nature of reality."

[youtube]zNin-lzX-Jk[/youtube]
Nova - The Fabric of The Cosmos Quantum Leap. 720p - YouTube

 

[The Wizard]

Ok, I will watch the movie. I am sure it can inform me on something pertaining to the microcosm of things. But, if he starts attempting to convince me that something actually begun existence itself then I will have to turn it off and call it, "cosmic koolaid." Becouse if Existence did not exist at any point then NOTHING would exist to begin it in the first place... I'm reffering to Existence, not the dynamics of the Universe, as in reffered quantum mechanics or virtual particles...

 

[shawn001]

for the grand scale you should watch this from a famous astrophysicist George Smoot.

At Serious Play 2008, astrophysicist George Smoot shows stunning new images from deep-space surveys, and prods us to ponder how the cosmos -- with its giant webs of dark matter and mysterious gaping voids -- got built this way.

[youtube]c64Aia4XE1Y[/youtube]
George Smoot: The design of the universe - YouTube

It is very cool on the universe and what were learning on the big scale.

One of sciences biggest challenges right now is to combine QM with the large scale cosmology.

This is also cool and worth watching.

The Known Universe takes viewers from the Himalayas through our atmosphere and the inky black of space to the afterglow of the Big Bang. Every star, planet, and quasar seen in the film is possible because of the world's most complete four-dimensional map of the universe, the Digital Universe Atlas that is maintained and updated by astrophysicists at the American Museum of Natural History.

[youtube]17jymDn0W6U[/youtube]
The Known Universe by AMNH - YouTube

At the end of moving out into the universe which is basically moving back in time, you'll notice it comes to this.

http://sos.noaa.gov/images/Solar_System/wmap.jpg

the after glow light in microwave of the big bang, before stars existed at all.

 

[The Wizard]

Actually, I also had to watch the "Illusion of Time" and "Multiverse" piece from those Nova episodes. Very cool videos. Thanks for introducing the material. There was alot of integrations I acquired from that information- I'll have to watch the other videos when I have the time.

But basically, I'm glad to see I'm still correct. Whether the Big Bang/Crunch module, God and Creator or Multiverse Theory- Existence has just simply always existed. There's a good one for others to consider when putting their Cosmic Riddle together. Until next time- with regards...

 

[shawn001]

Actually, I also had to watch the "Illusion of Time" and "Multiverse" piece from those Nova episodes. Very cool videos. Thanks for introducing the material. There was alot of integrations I acquired from that information- I'll have to watch the other videos when I have the time.

But basically, I'm glad to see I'm still correct. Whether the Big Bang/Crunch module, God and Creator or Multiverse Theory- Existence has just simply always existed. There's a good one for others to consider when putting their Cosmic Riddle together. Until next time- with regards...

Gald you enjoyed them.

Again though because the universe is expanding faster then light gravity pulling it back onto itself to form another singularity has pretty much been ruled out. In part because of the discovery of dark matter and dark energy, which we don't understand yet.

" Existence has just simply always existed" This universe seems to have a starting point to its existence though. Most, not all cosmologist today believe there are other universes.

One way to check for that is ripples in the CMB light from the big bang using the wmap data and now the new planck data which we should have soon, as the planck data is being analyzed.

Like throwing a pebble in a pond it would create ripples.

 

[Thief]

Gald you enjoyed them.

Again though because the universe is expanding faster then light gravity pulling it back onto itself to form another singularity has pretty much been ruled out. In part because of the discovery of dark matter and dark energy, which we don't understand yet.

" Existence has just simply always existed" This universe seems to have a starting point to its existence though. Most, not all cosmologist today believe there are other universes.

One way to check for that is ripples in the CMB light from the big bang using the wmap data and now the new planck data which we should have soon, as the planck data is being analyzed.

Like throwing a pebble in a pond it would create ripples.

Are we still attempting to leave the Creator out it?

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Throwing stones are we?

 

[The Wizard]

Gald you enjoyed them.

Again though because the universe is expanding faster then light gravity pulling it back onto itself to form another singularity has pretty much been ruled out. In part because of the discovery of dark matter and dark energy, which we don't understand yet.

" Existence has just simply always existed" This universe seems to have a starting point to its existence though. Most, not all cosmologist today believe there are other universes.

One way to check for that is ripples in the CMB light from the big bang using the wmap data and now the new planck data which we should have soon, as the planck data is being analyzed.

Like throwing a pebble in a pond it would create ripples.

I pretty much knew or understood the majority on those episodes. Various details of the microcosm were lacking though. Perhaps this would be a seperate thread or something, but the spacial/time curve and situation of "now moments" was really interesting. Meaning, literally, our linear sense of time is an illusion... Now, I always thought that, but not in a refference of physics, more of an understandment of holistics... And, I have explained it to people quite a few times writing blogs or articles. Anyway, it is actually great to see these mysteries and new things popping up. I would not desire a boring Existence...

 

[The Wizard]

Are we still attempting to leave the Creator out it?

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Throwing stones are we?

I think most are just following the thread title- like myself. I have beliefs too. I don't think anyone's intention here is to attack or degrade other's beliefs or your beliefs. Well, at least I haven't noticed any of it....

 

[shawn001]

I pretty much knew or understood the majority on those episodes. Various details of the microcosm were lacking though. Perhaps this would be a seperate thread or something, but the spacial/time curve and situation of "now moments" was really interesting. Meaning, literally, our linear sense of time is an illusion... Now, I always thought that, but not in a refference of physics, more of an understandment of holistics... And, I have explained it to people quite a few times writing blogs or articles. Anyway, it is actually great to see these mysteries and new things popping up. I would not desire a boring Existence...

So Wizard when we were all taking about "nothing" in a vaccum it was in reference to those virtual particles, popping in and out of existence.

Hawking showed we live in a zero energy universe. He also showed a way the universe could be started without the need for a supernatural entity.

This doesn't disporve or prove any god. Just that you don't need one to start a universe.


This is another part of the series I can't remember if I posted or not.

The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space?

[youtube]wy9gXKwRpXc[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space? - YouTube

 

[shawn001]

Are we still attempting to leave the Creator out it?

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Throwing stones are we?

Pegg, the comment a ripple "like throwing a stone in a pond is not literal.

It would be ripples in the after glow light we have of the big bang and are measuring of the CMB.

Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background


Our poor universe shows bruises from collisions with other universes

Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background | Popular Science

 

[Thief]

I think most are just following the thread title- like myself. I have beliefs too. I don't think anyone's intention here is to attack or degrade other's beliefs or your beliefs. Well, at least I haven't noticed any of it....

More to point....
If you see ripples in the water...but didn't see who threw the stone...
Do you still insist there's nobody there?

Spirit first?...or substance?

 

[shawn001]

More to point....
If you see ripples in the water...but didn't see who threw the stone...
Do you still insist there's nobody there?

Spirit first?...or substance?

"If you see ripples in the water...but didn't see who threw the stone"

You assume "something" through the stone.

Ever hear of a landslide?


[youtube]XBFJOHrgXdk[/youtube]
Massive Cliff Collapse Caught on Camera - Geologist Filmed Cliff Rock Fall in Cornwall - YouTube


First you need to understand what the CBM is in the first place.

 

[Thief]

"If you see ripples in the water...but didn't see who threw the stone"

You assume "something" through the stone.

Ever hear of a landslide?


[youtube]XBFJOHrgXdk[/youtube]
Massive Cliff Collapse Caught on Camera - Geologist Filmed Cliff Rock Fall in Cornwall - YouTube


First you need to understand what the CBM is in the first place.

Are we setting aside the basic 'cause and effect' principle?
Ripples in water....landslides.....light....no God?

Take your pick....and then decide...
Spirit first?...or substance?

If substance is self generating then all spirit is chemistry and nothing more.
The grave awaits.

If Spirit first, then the possibility of life after death will be there for you
as you surrender your last breath.

Spirit by chemistry?....

 

[PolyHedral]

Are we setting aside the basic 'cause and effect' principle?

Might as well. It has very little relevance to reality.