The Wizard
Active Member
Is this some sort of parable? You see ripples becuase you are the one who tossed the pebble in the first place... This reply is another ripple returning to your feet...
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Riddle of the beginning solved without god?
- Thread starter dyanaprajna2011
- Start date
Is this some sort of parable? You see ripples becuase you are the one who tossed the pebble in the first place... This reply is another ripple returning to your feet...
Thief
Rogue Theologian
And you have been watching science documentaries of recent years?
I've noticed a trend.
The more they investigator attempts to explain what he has observed, the more willing he is to make explanation beyond what he can prove.
Are you not doing the same?
Cause and effect no longer work?.....really?
And you still consider yourself a realistic thinker?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I thought we were discussing observed events...such as ripples on water.
For every effect there is a cause...for every cause there is and effect.
The two cannot be separated.
Modern science does speculate to do so.
Particle observations are difficult and time consuming.
The results are sometimes puzzling.
Some experiments are now in progress, have been for years....no results.
What are they looking for?
That elusive particle that explains something else they saw.
They see the ripple.
But don't want to say anything of spirit.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
The cause of the landslide was erosion. The effect was a landslide.
What spirit are you talking about here?
By substance do you mean matter itself?
Without chemistry there would be no life at all.
"Are we setting aside the basic 'cause and effect' principle?
as PolyHedral pointed out and this thread in general.
"Might as well. It has very little relevance to reality."
Please give me a non biblical scientific example of any "spirit"?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
A spirit is about to respond to this......
shawn001
Well-Known Member
"I thought we were discussing observed events...such as ripples on water."
No that was an anology to the below. Which you don't seem to grasp.
Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background
Our poor universe shows bruises from collisions with other universes
Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background | Popular Science
"Modern science does speculate to do so.
Particle observations are difficult and time consuming.
The results are sometimes puzzling.
Some experiments are now in progress, have been for years....no results."
No results? Except one of the most successful theories in all of science. Quantum mechanics. Which is one reason your on a computer.
"That's right. Quantum mechanics is the most successful physical theory in the history of humankind. Something like 70 percent of all the industrial capacity in the world is based in some way on quantum mechanics. It's used in your cell phone, your computer, GPS devices, lasers, anything that's digital and electronic, even in biology. DNA, for instance, can be dealt with on a quantum-mechanical level. And the science, the mathematics of quantum mechanics, is phenomenally successful in predicting what will happen if you shoot electrons at certain targets or try to make cell phone signals error-free."
NOVA | The Many Worlds Theory Today
Or figuring out atoms, or all of the sub atomic particles they have discovered to mention a few 'results."
"For every effect there is a cause...for every cause there is and effect.
The two cannot be separated.
You don't understand QM theory here.
"If substance is self generating then all spirit is chemistry and nothing more.
The grave awaits."
Theif, what would quantum immortality be all about?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
You claim I lack understanding.....not true.
I happen to love science.....ranked superior in school days...
and I would prefer science documentaries to any other entertainment.
You assume to little of me....too much of yourself.
Spirit as transcending multiple universes?....doesn't take God away.
As with cause and effect...
You cannot separate the Creator from His creation.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Not in the way you want it to, no, it doesn't.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So when and how did this basic notion of science fail?
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
The naive guess that is causation failed when quantum mechanics came about. Once that happened, true randomness entered the picture, and meant you can't really say what caused something to happen.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
This statement of yours blows all of science out of the water.
It is the essence of science to discover the cause.....with repeatable experiment.
If any 'thing' can happen without cause.....the event cannot be shown...
scientifically.
Perhaps you 'believe' in such things without proof?
Proof being that item of repeatable demonstration.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
As of 1950 or so, the same experiment no longer produces the same answer. Turns out, that's a fundamental fact of the universe.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Random is a repeatable result...how mind-boggling.As of 1950 or so, the same experiment no longer produces the same answer. Turns out, that's a fundamental fact of the universe.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
It's only "the same" if you collate all the results you get. I don't think that's what Thief's talking about.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
As of 1950 or so, the same experiment no longer produces the same answer. Turns out, that's a fundamental fact of the universe.
So you CAN accept an idea...though it lacks the repeatable experiment.
Closet believer?
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
I don't understand you. There isn't anything to believe in here, except that the universe is truly random and there's no way around it, and that's staring you in the face.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Did see a documentary about 'random' events.
It was noted....no one can predict the flight path of a dandelion seed.
Left to their own, a small number of seeds can fill a field.
The repeated action, cannot be described by equation.
But it's a sure thing...none the less.
If you consider the creation of the universe a random action...
Does that take away the First of Spirit....of mind and heart?
Still the choice remains..which came first?
Spirit or substance.
It was noted....no one can predict the flight path of a dandelion seed.
Left to their own, a small number of seeds can fill a field.
The repeated action, cannot be described by equation.
But it's a sure thing...none the less.
If you consider the creation of the universe a random action...
Does that take away the First of Spirit....of mind and heart?
Still the choice remains..which came first?
Spirit or substance.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
You have to set 'cause and effect' aside if you want a God, since my understanding of what people believe God to be requires that it was always there and had no original cause.
If spirit means that imagined thing people discuss in the same terms as a soul, then there is no evidence for it, so you are left with substance and yes the grave awaits.