Rioting in Tottenham

[Alceste]

Indeed.
A more equal society.

True enough. I found the class mentality in England to be surprisingly entrenched - the "upper" and "lower" classes even have different accents. The rich and poor hardly cross paths with each other. Meanwhile, the political class is almost entirely made up of knobheads from a handful of upper class private schools. An article I read speculated that the kids participating in the looting and riots feel they have nothing to lose, since their economic prospects are utterly bleak and they are not permitted to meaningfully participate in the public policy debate. I think that rings true.

Research has found English youth to be the most miserable in Europe. The police harass them with arbitrary fines (ASBO) while the tabloids defame and stereotype them, and the quality of their education has been deteriorating since Thatcher.

It's a ****e state of affairs. This sort of thing was inevitable, and it will only continue. How long has Greece been at it? Bottom line, you just don't want a lot of unemployed youth milling around, and if that's what you happen to have, you'd best throw them a bone once in a while.

 

[kai]

Indeed.
A more equal society.

How is that possible? what do you think is needed. bearing in mind there are now reports of Asian v Black confrontations and even deaths. is it really about equality? what equalities are these I phone wielding muggers and looters lacking that i for example have.

Maybe we could give everyone a widescreen TV , new trainers Burbery shirts etc etc

 

[kai]

True enough. I found the class mentality in England to be surprisingly entrenched - the "upper" and "lower" classes even have different accents. The rich and poor hardly cross paths with each other. Meanwhile, the political class is almost entirely made up of knobheads from a handful of upper class private schools. An article I read speculated that the kids participating in the looting and riots feel they have nothing to lose, since their economic prospects are utterly bleak and they are not permitted to meaningfully participate in the public policy debate. I think that rings true. Nothing to lose ?please elaborate

Research has found English youth to be the most miserable in Europe. The police harass them with arbitrary fines (ASBO) while the tabloids defame and stereotype them, and the quality of their education has been deteriorating since Thatcher. I agree education and family values are diminishing by the decade

It's a ****e state of affairs. This sort of thing was inevitable, and it will only continue. How long has Greece been at it? Bottom line, you just don't want a lot of unemployed youth milling around, and if that's what you happen to have, you'd best throw them a bone once in a while.

they dont want bones they want expensive stuff that many many of us in the UK cant afford, difference is , they are just taking it.


and different towns have different accents in the UK. Go 20 miles in any direction from where i live and accents change.

 

[sandandfoam]

what equalities are these I phone wielding muggers and looters lacking that i for example have.

They're lacking a future.

what do you think is needed

I believe we are still reaping the whirlwind from the time that old bag Thatcher was in charge and peddled the insidious idea that there is no such thing as a society. Blair, the undercover Tory, kept the flame alive. I think what is needed is a different approach. For example people aren't taxpayers they are citizens. Power needs to be in the hands of people not elites. It will take a long time but a sense of community, country and pride needs to be restored. And that sense needs to extend beyond the leafy suburbs.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

True enough. I found the class mentality in England to be surprisingly entrenched - the "upper" and "lower" classes even have different accents. The rich and poor hardly cross paths with each other. Meanwhile, the political class is almost entirely made up of knobheads from a handful of upper class private schools. An article I read speculated that the kids participating in the looting and riots feel they have nothing to lose, since their economic prospects are utterly bleak and they are not permitted to meaningfully participate in the public policy debate. I think that rings true.

Research has found English youth to be the most miserable in Europe. The police harass them with arbitrary fines (ASBO) while the tabloids defame and stereotype them, and the quality of their education has been deteriorating since Thatcher.

It's a ****e state of affairs. This sort of thing was inevitable, and it will only continue. How long has Greece been at it? Bottom line, you just don't want a lot of unemployed youth milling around, and if that's what you happen to have, you'd best throw them a bone once in a while.

Class in the UK is not quite what most foreigners think.

It is a long time since there was a rich upper class. There are a few survivor of course, just as there are everywhere.

Most of the rich today are self made, as are the super rich.
a surprisingly large proportion are from deprived backgrounds.

The political class tend to come from children of first generation wealthy.

The English Youth are mostly good citizens, the few you are talking about are those who are dysfunctional for one reason or another. They have the same opportunities as others with the same background but fail to take advantage of them.

They have exactly the same opportunity to get involved with local and national politics as we all do.

Fortunately the dysfunctional youths and adults are a small self selected minority.

 

[Onkara]

The issue is self-image, British have a diminishing image of themselves in my opinion. There is no solid self-identity.

 

[kai]

They're lacking a future. Why? and isn't your use of the word "there " a little generalizing. Have you seen the picture of the kid on the bike with a basket full of sweets in the paper. did he steal them from the looted shop because he lacked a future ? i wonder?

I believe we are still reaping the whirlwind from the time that old bag Thatcher was in charge and peddled the insidious idea that there is no such thing as a society. Blair, the undercover Tory, kept the flame alive. I think what is needed is a different approach. For example people aren't taxpayers they are citizens. Power needs to be in the hands of people not elites. It will take a long time but a sense of community, country and pride needs to be restored. And that sense needs to extend beyond the leafy suburbs.

The vigilante groups now forming in these areas, don't they have the same problems and aspirations? the Sikh groups guarding their Temples don't they have the same problems ? communities are taking action to protect their lives and properties from criminal gangs nothing less in my view.

Its a very small minority doing this Stephen even though the media makes it seem like the whole country is on fire.

 

[Erebus]

I think the mentality is

"I'm really very angry. No-one has listened to me. I've tried everything. This is what it takes for people to listen to me."

And with a whole crowd thinking along those lines, it's going to turn into action. It's bound to happen. It's people wanting to be listened to.

I very nearly agree with this. Conservative governments always hit the poorer people hardest while protecting the interests of the wealthy. There's been rioting of this sort during every conservative rule, though not on the same scale.

The rioting IMO is the ill educated masses realising that they're being screwed, but not being bright enough to direct that aggression at a deserving target. Being working class myself I fully understand why people are angry, but I'm disgusted with the manner in which that anger is being expressed.

Petty as it may sound, I'd welcome Cameron's death. I fully intend to dance on his grave. Thatcher too and that traitorous swine Nick Clegg, but rioting isn't going to help me there.

 

[LuisDantas]

Has anyone brought up the parallels to 1992 Los Angeles already?

1992 Los Angeles riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How is that possible? what do you think is needed. bearing in mind there are now reports of Asian v Black confrontations and even deaths. is it really about equality?

I'm willing to bet that it is indeed. Equality of perspective and opportunity. Far too much of people's future is decided by the circunstances of their births.

what equalities are these I phone wielding muggers and looters lacking that i for example have.

While I don't know for sure, I assume that you have enjoyed opportunities for profesional education, social integration and personal recognition that simply aren't really available for everyone.

That is my extrapolation from personal experience here in Brazil, anyway. Economic and social factors make us a de facto caste system. Europe is unlikely to suffer from that problem quite so badly, but still.

 

[kai]

Has anyone brought up the parallels to 1992 Los Angeles already?

1992 Los Angeles riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I'm willing to bet that it is indeed. Equality of perspective and opportunity. Far too much of people's future is decided by the circunstances of their births.





While I don't know for sure, I assume that you have enjoyed opportunities for profesional education, social integration and personal recognition that simply aren't really available for everyone.

That is my extrapolation from personal experience here in Brazil, anyway. Economic and social factors make us a de facto caste system. Europe is unlikely to suffer from that problem quite so badly, but still.

Just reading the paper and i see a teenager taken to court she is 19 years old and was found to be behind the wheel of a car containing over £5000 worth of stolen electrical goods . I wonder what this child of company director who lives in a million pound farm house in Kent is really lacking?



Then there's the "Organic chef" that was smashing up a branch of the Nandos chicken restaurant chain?

How about the guy that only stole the ski goggles " to protect himself from the flying glass". come on folks pleeeaase.

 

[lunakilo]

There may be a reason why riots start. Some trigger there may or may not be valid.

But after the riot starts there are always people who just smash things because it is fun or just steal things because they can.

This doesn't mean the problem which triggerd the riot has gone away.

 

[Alceste]

Kai, to elaborate on the idea of "nothing to lose", the looters and rioters are mostly young, unemployed people. Joblessness is on the rise across the board and policies like forcing welfare recipients to work full time for the private sector for free to get their welfare cheque inevitably hit the youth employment market the hardest. Anybody needing assistance is treated like a criminal (after a while, you have to check in every day). It is not unreasonable for youth to speculate that it might be years before they find a job that meets the cost of living no matter how hard they try, and that the quality of the work if they find it will leave much to be desired. Meanwhile, the coalition wants to triple the cost of higher education. The British public is delighted with a policy that allows police to arbitrarily hand out fines to teens for LEGAL behavior the officer subjectively disapproves of. The advantages of conforming to social norms are not obvious to kids in that situation. The advantages of having a bike or a laptop ARE obvious.

If you or I were caught with a bag of pilfered electronics, we would risk the disdain of our friends and associates, awkward court appearances, our jobs and future prospects, possibly our freedom to travel. It is unlikely that most of the kids on the streets are worried about these things. They don't feel they have jobs or future prospects anyway and most of their friends and associates are goading them on. The police are not in control of the situation so the likelihood of getting caught seems low.

As we saw with the hockey riot, when names start being attached to faces many of the smashers and looters will tearfully repent. They're not necessarily bad kids. They've just been swept up in an event that lets them vent some of that raging libido and frustration that torments us all as teenagers.

 

[Alceste]

Class in the UK is not quite what most foreigners think.

It is a long time since there was a rich upper class. There are a few survivor of course, just as there are everywhere.

Most of the rich today are self made, as are the super rich.
a surprisingly large proportion are from deprived backgrounds.

The political class tend to come from children of first generation wealthy.

The English Youth are mostly good citizens, the few you are talking about are those who are dysfunctional for one reason or another. They have the same opportunities as others with the same background but fail to take advantage of them.

They have exactly the same opportunity to get involved with local and national politics as we all do.

Fortunately the dysfunctional youths and adults are a small self selected minority.

I lived in the UK for 2 years. I'm telling you, I found the class mentality to be surprisingly entrenched. It's very different from Canada. However you got there, your "class" is a major part of your identity in the UK. Not so much here.

 

[Father Heathen]

I lived in the UK for 2 years. I'm telling you, I found the class mentality to be surprisingly entrenched. It's very different from Canada. However you got there, your "class" is a major part of your identity in the UK. Not so much here.

I guess that explains why they toss the slang "chav" around a lot.

 

[Erebus]

I guess that explains why they toss the slang "chav" around a lot.

Yeah Chav refers to a very specific element of the working class (along with some of the middle class more recently and Prince Harry).

They're the ones who wear tracksuits and caps, listen to RnB/rap and are obsessed with football. Some of them are decent enough people who just like the music and clothing, but there's a glorification of criminal behaviour in the subculture too and a lot get caught up in it.

A lot of people consider "chav" to be a demonisation of working class people. Personally I find this idea insulting as do a hell of a lot of other working class people who have to put up with gangs of chavs.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It feels to me that the shooting was the catalyst for, rather than the cause of, the rioting

Emphasis added. Exactly! And the police shooting victim's wife, the widow Mrs. Duggan, has been quoted saying she is appalled by the violence and looting.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Maybe they need religion in their lives to fill the gap which consumerism causes?

I think everyone needs *something* in their lives other than consumerism. Yes. I definitely prefer most forms of religion to consumerism and mindless selfishness.

 

[YmirGF]

Expectations of unlimited entitlements + Lack of personal responsibility + Lack of consequences + Access to Social Media + Lack of political will = Anarchy in the streets

In my view the class meme is a canard used to behave badly due to the inherent knowledge that there will be virtually no consequences for that kind of behavior. Heck the little munchkins aren't even responsible for their individual actions because they are swept up in the actions of the group.

We have taught our children well, why should we fault them from carrying out a natural progression of their instruction?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

A tragic story is emerging that shows how lack of restraint, and happenstance, can spiral out of control:

In an interview with the Guardian, Ms Wilson also made a plea for an explanation from authorities.

She said: 'When we were outside the police station last night we wanted someone to come out. We want some answers. I have not even told my children that he is dead because we cannot give them any answers.'
...
Mr Duggan was shot by officers from the Metropolitan Police’s CO19 unit on Thursday evening after the minicab he was travelling in was stopped. There was an apparent ‘exchange’ of fire and a bullet was found lodged in a police radio.

Mr Duggan died at the scene and an officer was injured, but left hospital after treatment.
The violence last night started soon after a crowd of about 120 had begun to gather at the High Road, near Tottenham Hotspur’s football ground, from about 5.30pm.

One resident, Laurence Bailey, told the Guardian that the violence started after a 16-year-old girl 'threw something, maybe a stone, at the original riot police line'.

He added that this was met with a furious response, with around 15 riot officers pounding her with shields.

This description of events was corroborated by another local who spoke to BBC News. He said that the girl was 'set upon' by police and that the crowd surged forward in anger.

Read more: Tottenham riot over Mark Duggan shooting sparked by police 'beating' girl? | Mail Online​

...And then opportunist criminals used this as a pretext to go on a looting and crime spree. Although from interviews with the looters, it sounds like youthful idealism and frustration are mixed in as well.

 

[kai]

Kai, to elaborate on the idea of "nothing to lose", the looters and rioters are mostly young, unemployed people. Joblessness is on the rise across the board and policies like forcing welfare recipients to work full time for the private sector for free to get their welfare cheque inevitably hit the youth employment market the hardest. Anybody needing assistance is treated like a criminal (after a while, you have to check in every day). It is not unreasonable for youth to speculate that it might be years before they find a job that meets the cost of living no matter how hard they try, and that the quality of the work if they find it will leave much to be desired. Meanwhile, the coalition wants to triple the cost of higher education. The British public is delighted with a policy that allows police to arbitrarily hand out fines to teens for LEGAL behavior the officer subjectively disapproves of. The advantages of conforming to social norms are not obvious to kids in that situation. The advantages of having a bike or a laptop ARE obvious.

If you or I were caught with a bag of pilfered electronics, we would risk the disdain of our friends and associates, awkward court appearances, our jobs and future prospects, possibly our freedom to travel. It is unlikely that most of the kids on the streets are worried about these things. They don't feel they have jobs or future prospects anyway and most of their friends and associates are goading them on. The police are not in control of the situation so the likelihood of getting caught seems low.

As we saw with the hockey riot, when names start being attached to faces many of the smashers and looters will tearfully repent. They're not necessarily bad kids. They've just been swept up in an event that lets them vent some of that raging libido and frustration that torments us all as teenagers. On that i agree

Lets see as the court cases start coming in ,who those are who have nothing to lose.