Rioting in Tottenham

[Panda]

are they labeling the rioters as being on benefits and living in council houses then?

Well the ones that aren't professionals in high paying jobs are getting that label it appears.

 

[kai]

Well the ones that aren't professionals in high paying jobs are getting that label it appears.

yeah the poor ones will obviously get it in the neck more than the better off ones.

 

[Alceste]

As a matter of interest what class does your partner consider himself to be?

He has an upper middle class dad and a working class mum. I imagine he identifies most with the middle class.

and let me just say its not easy to form a general idea about what kind of life a person leads or how much money they make on the basis of an address, where they're from, what they wear, how they talk or what school they went In the UK either the guy in the big house with the Ferrari whose kids go to private school is just as likely to be a drug dealer as a "toff"

Maybe we Brits think of the class system of the Victorian times , i don't know what your thinking about to be honest. and you really have no "yobs" ? at all ? or do you just call them street gangs?

I'm talking about the persistence of sociological echoes of the class system of Victorian times, which remain fairly pronounced in Britain from what I observed while I was there. For example, the people we worked with nick-named my partner 'Lord [last name]' on account of his Cambridge accent and the little cup and saucer he drank his tea out of.

We don't have any yobs at all, and no toffs. Seriously. We don't call them anything, because there isn't a "them" here that needs to have a name.

 

[Alceste]

Have you seen the petition going before the government to stop benefits to rioters? As well as evicting them from their council houses.
BBC News - Ministers back councils over evicting rioters
BBC News - Riots: Benefits e-petition hits crucial 100,000 mark

lol - that's a real solution. If there's one thing that will alleviate the economic pressure that causes these mass eruptions of riotous, bacchanalian criminality it's making thousands upon thousands of angry young people homeless and making sure they have no money for food.

 

[Alceste]

are they labeling the rioters as being on benefits and living in council houses then?

Only yesterday I was joking that the looters should dress up in suits and go rob the banking district on the off chance the police might beat up a real criminal by accident.

 

[kai]

He has an upper middle class dad and a working class mum. I imagine he identifies most with the middle class. please elaborate what is this "middle class" that he identifies with

I'm talking about the persistence of sociological echoes of the class system of Victorian times, which remain fairly pronounced in Britain from what I observed while I was there. For example, the people we worked with nick-named my partner 'Lord [last name]' on account of his Cambridge accent and the little cup and saucer he drank his tea out of. My grandmother still drinks out of a little cup and saucer its litle old fashioned but no one calls her Lady ( last name) perhaps his workmates were what we call nobheads

We don't have any yobs at all, and no toffs. Seriously. We don't call them anything, because there isn't a "them" here that needs to have a name.

So you have found utopia a country of equals where all men and women are considered of equal status in society ,amazing.

 

[kai]

This may be of interest;

Reporter Andrew Gilligan wrote in the Daily Telegraph: “Here in court, as David Cameron condemned the ‘sickness’ in parts of British society, we saw clearly, for the first time, the face of the riot: stripped of its hoods and masks, dressed in white prison T-shirts and handcuffed to burly security guards.
“It was rather different from the one we had been expecting.”
He added of the defendants at Highbury Magistrates Court in north London: “Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older.
“Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs.”


London’s downtrodden rioters: lifeguard, postman, chef, charity worker, millionaire’s daughter & 11-year-old boy | The Desk of Brian




What nobody expected was the profile of the looters which emerged from the first prosecutions yesterday. Many media outlets remarked on the fact that they included a graphic designer, a university graduate and someone who was just about the enter the army. Without knowing what the other looters listed as their professions, it is hard to decide whether theses are significant or not. What they do indicate is that no simplistic assumptions can be made about the shared alienation of looters and rioters from society. David Hughes in Wednesday's Torygraph writes:

The BBC is reporting that the first person up at Highbury Magistrates Court on looting charges was a 31-year old school teacher [a teaching assistant apparently] named Alexis Bailey. He pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.


http://thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/2011/08/who-does-this-kind-of-thing.html

 

[Alceste]

I am with Kai and Terry on the class thing. It is only important to a very small minority of people I think.

I am quite confused at where Alceste is getting the idea that class is important? Also I am not even that sure what you mean by class Alceste. How do you define class? Is it money, family what?

Look, do any of these words mean anything to you?

Yob, toff, chav, Sloan Ranger, landed gentry, rah, tinker, aristocracy, ?

We don't have use those types of words in Canada because (leaving First Nations people aside for the moment) we don't have groups of people about whom anything meaningful can be summed up by a quick, casual reference to their socio-economic situation. It's not that we go out of our way to avoid it, or that it's taboo or something. Our society just isn't arranged in a way that makes it possible to associate primarily with people of the same socio-economic background as you (unless you put a huge amount of effort in).

Wampus is amazed that you are not able to recognize the significance of class in British society, BTW.

 

[kai]

I have to agree with the one brave woman in Hackney who put it like this :

"We're not all gathering together for a cause, we're running down Foot Locker."

it remains the case that these are shopping riots, characterised by their consumer choices: that's the bit we've never seen before. A violent act by the authorities, triggering a howl of protest – that bit is as old as time. But crowds moving from shopping centre to shopping centre? Actively trying to avoid a confrontation with police, trying to get in and out of JD Sports before the "feds" arrive? That bit is new.

The UK riots: the psychology of looting | Zoe Williams | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[Alceste]

So you have found utopia a country of equals where all men and women are considered of equal status in society ,amazing.

There you go. You do understand it after all. Class mentality is so entrenched in England that the concept of a country that is not preoccupied with class seems utterly implausible and hopelessly idealistic to you.

Maybe this explains why so many of my neighbours are euphoric looking English people...

 

[kai]

Look, do any of these words mean anything to you?

Yob, toff, chav, Sloan Ranger, landed gentry, rah, tinker, aristocracy, ?

We don't have use those types of words in Canada because (leaving First Nations people aside for the moment) we don't have groups of people about whom anything meaningful can be summed up by a quick, casual reference to their socio-economic situation. It's not that we go out of our way to avoid it, or that it's taboo or something. Our society just isn't arranged in a way that makes it possible to associate primarily with people of the same socio-economic background as you (unless you put a huge amount of effort in).

Wampus is amazed that you are not able to recognize the significance of class in British society, BTW.

Yes they all mean something to me, except "rah" never heard that one .

Yob is a another word for hooligan

Toff is never used in normal conversation anymore at least not by myself and my peers its old fashioned for a rich man.

Chav is street slang for people who wear highly branded designer clothing usually fake. Although i think it has different meanings depending where in the UK you live

Sloan Ranger I havnt heard that one for years if i remember rightly it was a group of young affluent women in London.

landed gentry Old fashioned name dont really know what it means without looking it up.

Rah no idea without looking it up


tinker someone who sells door to door

Wampus is amazed that you are not able to recognize the significance of class in British society, BTW.

I am not sure what a Wampus is

 

[Panda]

Look, do any of these words mean anything to you?

Yob, toff, chav, Sloan Ranger, landed gentry, rah, tinker, aristocracy, ?

Some do some don't. Though aristocracy and landed gentry are the only that have any class meaning to me though not in any meaningful way these days. Chav (or in Scotland Ned) is more to do with behaviour than socio-economic conditions where I live. There are Ned's who's parents both drive brand new BMWs and Audis and there are ones who parents are on benefits.

We don't have use those types of words in Canada because (leaving First Nations people aside for the moment) we don't have groups of people about whom anything meaningful can be summed up by a quick, casual reference to their socio-economic situation. It's not that we go out of our way to avoid it, or that it's taboo or something. Our society just isn't arranged in a way that makes it possible to associate primarily with people of the same socio-economic background as you (unless you put a huge amount of effort in).

*shrug* Neither is mine. I'm sorry if you don't agree but my own experience is class isn't really an issue. Most I think it has played a role in my life is the slight mocking of one of my friends that went to a private school and has her own hot tub (mocking stops once in said hot tub however)

Wampus is amazed that you are not able to recognize the significance of class in British society, BTW.

Maybe it is own significant to those that want it to be? I don't think I've ever faced any discrimination or any ill effects because my family would likely be classed as working class. I really don't see the effect of class on anything I have done in my life.

 

[kai]

Some do some don't. Though aristocracy and landed gentry are the only that have any class meaning to me though not in any meaningful way these days. Chav (or in Scotland Ned) is more to do with behaviour than socio-economic conditions where I live. There are Ned's who's parents both drive brand new BMWs and Audis and there are ones who parents are on benefits.



*shrug* Neither is mine. I'm sorry if you don't agree but my own experience is class isn't really an issue. Most I think it has played a role in my life is the slight mocking of one of my friends that went to a private school and has her own hot tub (mocking stops once in said hot tub however)



Maybe it is own significant to those that want it to be? I don't think I've ever faced any discrimination or any ill effects because my family would likely be classed as working class. I really don't see the effect of class on anything I have done in my life.

cant agree more

 

[kai]

There you go. You do understand it after all. Class mentality is so entrenched in England that the concept of a country that is not preoccupied with class seems utterly implausible and hopelessly idealistic to you.

Maybe this explains why so many of my neighbours are euphoric looking English people...

I was being sarcastic and nearly all my neighbours are euphoric looking English people too.


you are kind of moving the goal post , using slang words and such to enforce the idea that we have a distinct class system still.

 

[Alceste]

Some do some don't. Though aristocracy and landed gentry are the only that have any class meaning to me though not in any meaningful way these days. Chav (or in Scotland Ned) is more to do with behaviour than socio-economic conditions where I live. There are Ned's who's parents both drive brand new BMWs and Audis and there are ones who parents are on benefits.



*shrug* Neither is mine. I'm sorry if you don't agree but my own experience is class isn't really an issue. Most I think it has played a role in my life is the slight mocking of one of my friends that went to a private school and has her own hot tub (mocking stops once in said hot tub however)



Maybe it is own significant to those that want it to be? I don't think I've ever faced any discrimination or any ill effects because my family would likely be classed as working class. I really don't see the effect of class on anything I have done in my life.

Have you ever lived outside of England?

 

[Alceste]

I was being sarcastic and nearly all my neighbours are euphoric looking English people too.


you are kind of moving the goal post , using slang words and such to enforce the idea that we have a distinct class system still.

I said class MENTALITY, all along, not class SYSTEM. Who's moving goal posts now? I picked out common words that I heard regularly in England that evoke a general image of a person's socio-economic status or background. Maybe you don't recall hearing that kind of language because it is so ubiquitous. Maybe it's like Canadians with "eh" - we're so used to it we tend not to believe we actually say it at all, let alone frequently.

 

[YmirGF]

Lol, of course people who have only ever lived in England are better qualified to compare the concept of class in England and Canada than someone who has lived in both countries.

What is amusing, Alceste, is that I was discussing this thread at lunch with some friends and mentioned your post. I predicted that you would respond to Kai and Terry with the "can't see the forest for the trees" argument. Looks like I was spot on, eh.

 

[darkendless]

My family near Tottneham are currently in Bristol. We've spoken to them and don't know if there house is ok.

Can't believe this is happening, in 3 months i'm going to see Tottenham play and their match has been cancelled for tonight because of the riots.

The army needs to go in and crack some skulls. These people who are causing this violence are drug-dealers and low lives. Sure if people want to protest do it the proper way, wrecking peoples houses and shops (essentially their lives) is a scum move. I know the Yid Army are now out in force trying to protect houses against these yobbos so the druggies better watch themselves or Englands finest football firm will beat some sense into them

 

[kai]

Have you ever lived outside of England?

I beleive he lives in Scotland and you have probably offended him LoL Its a common mistake made by people who are not that well acquainted with the peoples of these islands as they think they are.

 

[kai]

I said class MENTALITY, all along, not class SYSTEM. Who's moving goal posts now? I picked out common words that I heard regularly in England that evoke a general image of a person's socio-economic status or background. Maybe you don't recall hearing that kind of language because it is so ubiquitous. Maybe it's like Canadians with "eh" - we're so used to it we tend not to believe we actually say it at all, let alone frequently.

and yet most of the words you gave as examples, are social stereotypes that conjure up behavioral or cultural traits rather than the person's socio-economic status or background.

I think every country has social hierarchy or Social Stratification ( i cant seriously believe Canada is any different) but i also think foreigners tend to stereotype the British one with it a great deal more than we actually deserve while underplaying their own.

The court cases are now taking place and there seems to be a broad spectrum of individuals from all walks of life and ethnicity that took part in this phenomena.

Law and order seems to have temporarily broken down and i think government cuts to the police have a certain responsibility in preventing them quashing it a lot earlier than it could have been.