Rioting in Tottenham

[kai]

My family near Tottneham are currently in Bristol. We've spoken to them and don't know if there house is ok.

Can't believe this is happening, in 3 months i'm going to see Tottenham play and their match has been cancelled for tonight because of the riots.

The army needs to go in and crack some skulls. These people who are causing this violence are drug-dealers and low lives. Sure if people want to protest do it the proper way, wrecking peoples houses and shops (essentially their lives) is a scum move. I know the Yid Army are now out in force trying to protect houses against these yobbos so the druggies better watch themselves or Englands finest football firm will beat some sense into them

I live near Bristol its pretty quiet.

this might be of interest

This is Bristol | Latest News in Bristol

 

[Alceste]

I think every country has social hierarchy or Social Stratification ( i cant seriously believe Canada is any different) but i also think foreigners tend to stereotype the British one with it a great deal more than we actually deserve while underplaying their own.

You can't believe Canada is different? Why wouldn't it be different? If you find foreigners often seem surprised by the extent of social stratification in the UK, which your comment implies, what would make you assume their own countries are no different?

I am telling you it's different here. Not better: different. Leaving the first nations situation off the table for the moment, there is a little bit of social stratification, sure. It's nothing like what you have over there. We have different subcategories of people and stereotypes, but they say nothing about one's socioeconomic background. We've got groups like "Newfies" and "Francophones" and "bikers" and "snowboarders" and "hockey fans". No toffs, though. We pretty much look and sound the same too (except the Newfies), regardless of our economic situation. Both the Prime Minister and the waitress who served me breakfast this morning have the same accent I do and probably went to schools just like the one I went to.

 

[Panda]

Have you ever lived outside of England?

Yes all my life, in fact I have only lived in England for about the last 6 weeks. I live in Scotland. (Kinda like me saying you live in the USA)

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes all my life, in fact I have only lived in England for about the last 6 weeks. I live in Scotland. (Kinda like me saying you live in the USA)

It is interesting that when things like accent did make a difference in the UK, and every one of " class" aspired to the "standard English accent". The Scottish accent was entirely acceptable in all circles. This was unlike the welsh and Irish accents which were viewed with suspicion by everyone.

 

[Panda]

It is interesting that when things like accent did make a difference in the UK, and every one of " class" aspired to the "standard English accent". The Scottish accent was entirely acceptable in all circles. This was unlike the welsh and Irish accents which were viewed with suspicion by everyone.

That is because we are funny, charming and always bring the booze

 

[kai]

You can't believe Canada is different? Why wouldn't it be different? If you find foreigners often seem surprised by the extent of social stratification in the UK, which your comment implies, what would make you assume their own countries are no different?

what i actually said was

(I think every country has social hierarchy or Social Stratification ( i cant seriously believe Canada is any different)

well as you admit you do in fact have social stratification, i am not that far wrong.


I am telling you it's different here. Not better: different. Leaving the first nations situation off the table for the moment, there is a little bit of social stratification, sure. It's nothing like what you have over there. We have different subcategories of people and stereotypes, but they say nothing about one's socioeconomic background. We've got groups like "Newfies" and "Francophones" and "bikers" and "snowboarders" and "hockey fans". No toffs, though. We pretty much look and sound the same too (except the Newfies), regardless of our economic situation. Both the Prime Minister and the waitress who served me breakfast this morning have the same accent I do and probably went to schools just like the one I went to.

Why do you keep leaving the first nations out? is that the skeleton in your cupboard ? Any more Canadians like to give an opinion here?

Jeez i don't even have the same accent as my cousin who lives 18 miles away and she went to a school just like the one i went to. I notice the you like the word "Toff" never used in my area ,totally outdated, like something from the 1950s. they may use it elsewhere in the UK though. maybe they use it in Cornwall but we call that "wicker man Country" so maybe that's where you picked it up.


P.S.

i asked an elderly relative what Toff meant and she said " An elegantly, or stylishly dressed gentleman"

 

[Alceste]

Yes all my life, in fact I have only lived in England for about the last 6 weeks. I live in Scotland. (Kinda like me saying you live in the USA)

This entire thread you have been responding to my comments as though you live in the country I'm referring to (for example "i don't know what you're talking about - class has never been an issue for me"). I know Scotland isn't England - I assumed you were an English person because you are commenting as if you are one.

In fairness though, I ought to have written "have you ever lived outside the UK". I didn't live in England either. (Cornwall).

The question stands, though. Have you?

 

[kai]

He has an upper middle class dad and a working class mum. I imagine he identifies most with the middle class.

I'm talking about the persistence of sociological echoes of the class system of Victorian times, which remain fairly pronounced in Britain

from what I observed while I was there. For example, the people we worked with nick-named my partner 'Lord [last name]' on account of his Cambridge accent and the little cup and saucer he drank his tea out of.

We don't have any yobs at all, and no toffs. Seriously. We don't call them anything, because there isn't a "them" here that needs to have a name.

seems to me your clearly have refered to Britain which includes Scotland and Cornwall

 

[Panda]

This entire thread you have been responding to my comments as though you live in the country I'm referring to (for example "i don't know what you're talking about - class has never been an issue for me"). I know Scotland isn't England - I assumed you were an English person because you are commenting as if you are one.

In fairness though, I ought to have written "have you ever lived outside the UK". I didn't live in England either. (Cornwall).

Your questions have all said the UK. I assumed when you said UK you actually meant the UK and not just England, clearly my mistake.

The question stands, though. Have you?

No I have not. I have lived in the UK all my life, which tends to give more weight to my opinions on UK culture than yours especially if you only spent time in one place in the UK.

 

[Alceste]

Why do you keep leaving the first nations out? is that the skeleton in your cupboard ? Any more Canadians like to give an opinion here?

Jeez i don't even have the same accent as my cousin who lives 18 miles away and she went to a school just like the one i went to. I notice the you like the word "Toff" never used in my area ,totally outdated, like something from the 1950s. they may use it elsewhere in the UK though. maybe they use it in Cornwall but we call that "wicker man Country" so maybe that's where you picked it up.


P.S.

i asked an elderly relative what Toff meant and she said " An elegantly, or stylishly dressed gentleman"

I leave the first nations out because their situation is not relevant to a discussion of class mentality - Canada's policy toward indigenous populations is a whole other kettle of fish. It isn't pretty at all, but it's not about class either. Suffice it to say the living conditions on many resevations are appalling - overcrowded, no clean water, poverty, addiction and violence. Then there's the widespread racism and prairie police who drive native people out of town with no jackets in the dead of winter to die of exposure... It's a disgrace. But we're talking about social stratification among the dominant population due to wealth and breeding. We haven't got that here to anywhere near the extent the UK has it.

We've got other stuff.

 

[Alceste]

Your questions have all said the UK. I assumed when you said UK you actually meant the UK and not just England, clearly my mistake.



No I have not. I have lived in the UK all my life, which tends to give more weight to my opinions on UK culture than yours especially if you only spent time in one place in the UK.

I am comparing two countries I have lived in. If you have only ever lived in one of them, you're not qualified to dispute my impressions at all.

I lived in Cornwall for 2 years but visited friends and family in London, Bedford and Glagow regularly. I also lived in London for a few months in the 90's. I've also traveled extensively in Ireland, including the North. I have lived in 4 of the major cities in Canada (and a few small towns) and traveled all over.

 

[kai]

I leave the first nations out because their situation is not relevant to a discussion of class mentality - Canada's policy toward indigenous populations is a whole other kettle of fish. It isn't pretty at all, but it's not about class either. Suffice it to say the living conditions on many resevations are appalling - overcrowded, no clean water, poverty, addiction and violence. Then there's the widespread racism and prairie police who drive native people out of town with no jackets in the dead of winter to die of exposure... It's a disgrace. But we're talking about social stratification among the dominant population due to wealth and breeding. We haven't got that here to anywhere near the extent the UK has it.

We've got other stuff.

wow seems your dominant population due to wealth and breeding (Canadians) are not treating the indigenous population as equals. Bit of a Glass house you live in to be throwing stones about?

But we're talking about social stratification among the dominant population due to wealth and breeding. We haven't got that here to anywhere near the extent the UK has it.

we are indeed only were not talking about! it your kind of telling us Brits we have it and don't even know it. Tell me about the population in the UK that dominate the rest of us us because of wealth and breeding.


I don't dispute your impression! because after all its yours. I dont see how you can dispute ours either. after all they are based on experience yours and ours unless your suggesting we are thick or brainwashed or something.

 

[Panda]

I am comparing two countries I have lived in. If you have only ever lived in one of them, you're not qualified to dispute my impressions at all.

And I am telling you that the class views you are mentioning are not normal in the UK. Since you only lived here for a short time you really aren't qualified to dispute this.

 

[kai]

And I am telling you that the class views you are mentioning are not normal in the UK. Since you only lived here for a short time you really aren't qualified to dispute this.

i agree

 

[Alceste]

And I am telling you that the class views you are mentioning are not normal in the UK. Since you only lived here for a short time you really aren't qualified to dispute this.

They are very pronounced in comparison to Canada (and Australia, incidentally - been there too). What are your qualifications for disputing this observation?

You've got lords and dukes and baronesses and princes and princesses. We don't have anything that compares - even remotely - to that. 16 of your prime ministers went to Eton. There is no comparable institution here.

Do you understand that I am comparing two countries? If I had lived in the UK all my life, I couldn't do it. Believe it or not, different countries have different sociological problems to surmount.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A vast majority of people in the UK, if pushed into a corner, would Say they were middle class.
They would also say they were "Workers" Very few use the old class differentiations today.

A few union leaders would say they were working class and proud of it... as they drove away to their £350,000 pound houses, and holidays in the Seychelles.

 

[Alceste]

wow seems your dominant population due to wealth and breeding (Canadians) are not treating the indigenous population as equals. Bit of a Glass house you live in to be throwing stones about?

The treatment of the indigenous people here (and Australia) is not about wealth and breeding. It's about resource competition. Canada's problem has always been "what can we do with these people so we can have their land?" Murder was unpalatable to many, so we tried starving them into signing generous treaties in exchange for food. That still left them too much land, so we tried forced assimilation. That didn't work, so we left them on their reservations to fend for themselves, but without enough space to subsist in their traditional ways. Things are progressing slowly toward a fairer arrangement - hopefully one that allows for self-government and the abolishment or overhaul of the Indian Act - but it is still a shambles and an international embarassment.

I didn't claim we had no sociological obstacles to surmount, but ours are not about socio-economic class. By UK standards, first nations people are extremely rich: they "own" a vast amount of property - much of it very desirable.

we are indeed only were not talking about! it your kind of telling us Brits we have it and don't even know it. Tell me about the population in the UK that dominate the rest of us us because of wealth and breeding.


I don't dispute your impression! because after all its yours. I dont see how you can dispute ours either. after all they are based on experience yours and ours unless your suggesting we are thick or brainwashed or something.

I don't think you're brainwashed, I think you can't compare the issue of class in the "old world" and the "new" because you lack experience with the latter. No doubt if you were to live here a while many things would strike you as unusual compared to what you're used to, and in many cases if you were to share your impressions with me I wouldn't have any idea what you're on about. (eh?).

 

[kai]

The treatment of the indigenous people here (and Australia) is not about wealth and breeding. It's about resource competition. Canada's problem has always been "what can we do with these people so we can have their land?" Murder was unpalatable to many, so we tried starving them into signing generous treaties in exchange for food. That still left them too much land, so we tried forced assimilation. That didn't work, so we left them on their reservations to fend for themselves, but without enough space to subsist in their traditional ways. Things are progressing slowly toward a fairer arrangement - hopefully one that allows for self-government and the abolishment or overhaul of the Indian Act - but it is still a shambles and an international embarassment.

I didn't claim we had no sociological obstacles to surmount, but ours are not about socio-economic class. By UK standards, first nations people are extremely rich: they "own" a vast amount of property - much of it very desirable.


wow very interesting.



I don't think you're brainwashed, I think you can't compare the issue of class in the "old world" and the "new" because you lack experience with the latter. No doubt if you were to live here a while many things would strike you as unusual compared to what you're used to, and in many cases if you were to share your impressions with me I wouldn't have any idea what you're on about. (eh?).

I am not trying to compare anything you are!

i am just telling you how it is in my experience where i live. and that is i have really no idea what the heck ,upper middle class,lower middle class, or middle class, really means because the expressions never come up. working class is an expression people like my father and to a greater extent my grandfather would use but my generation are far far removed from all that. I have a son 29 and a daughter 20 , i asked them their opinions and they just said "what are you on about !"

 

[Alceste]

A vast majority of people in the UK, if pushed into a corner, would Say they were middle class.
They would also say they were "Workers" Very few use the old class differentiations today.

A few union leaders would say they were working class and proud of it... as they drove away to their £350,000 pound houses, and holidays in the Seychelles.

Well, it may be my partner's family had more cause to think and talk about class than most. His mum is the daughter of an Irish tinker docker who fought in both world wars. She was given a scholarship to go to one of the best schools in her area because she is very bright, but she experienced some pretty harsh treatment from both students and teachers while she was there because of her relative poverty. Basically, her successful pursuit of her chosen career moved her up a few notches on the social scale, but it was not the free and easy, well-oiled transition you all seem to be portraying. She's completely at ease with her working class roots and happy with her middle class career, but could have done without some of the nonsense getting from point A to point B.

 

[Alceste]

I am not trying to compare anything you are!

i am just telling you how it is in my experience where i live. and that is i have really no idea what the heck ,upper middle class,lower middle class, or middle class, really means because the expressions never come up. working class is an expression people like my father and to a greater extent my grandfather would use but my generation are far far removed from all that. I have a son 29 and a daughter 20 , i asked them their opinions and they just said "what are you on about !"

Maybe you should ask the Queen.