• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Robots

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Yes, I can decide what color my skin is. Not only can I leave it the color it began, I can change it to any color I wish. Further, I can describe the color it is or which color I want it to be in any conceivable way I choose.

I may get hungry without approval, but I can decide to ignore that hunger or satisfy it with food. I can also decide to satisfy it by eating rocks and pennies which won't do anything. I can also stand on my head and sing show tunes.

Still missing my point, completely. You keep asking a robot to do something it isn't programmed to do. There are things you aren't programmed to do, as well. You weren't programmed like a bird, so you don't have wings. You weren't programmed like a fish, so you don't have gills. You can't decide to grow wings or gills. What exactly is your point, again?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Absolutely not. Nature is the environment I program myself to react to. Nurture is just as internal since it is the product of the very same life I am part of. Further, I retain the ability to ignore both in any given situation.

That's so false, it's ridiculous. Can you decide not to react to your hand touching a fire, or is that programming you didn't program yourself? You could ignore feeding yourself, and most likely die. Can you program yourself to not die of starvation?

You keep telling me that I'm bound by my biology as if this doesn't support my argument. A computer is bound by its biology as well and still can't do anything without a human being telling it what to do and when. My biology is self-sufficient. A computer is a lump of compounds that is useless without a human. It's very clear difference that you illustrate for me over and over. Without the speculation of some external programmer, you can't draw a similarity at all.

Actually I provided a link earlier that showed that computers can act on their own - improvise, if that's what you mean. Computers can be programmed for greater self-sufficiency just as we are. There are robots are out there right now, with the programming to replenish themselves with energy as they need.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Still missing my point, completely. You keep asking a robot to do something it isn't programmed to do. There are things you aren't programmed to do, as well. You weren't programmed like a bird, so you don't have wings. You weren't programmed like a fish, so you don't have gills. You can't decide to grow wings or gills. What exactly is your point, again?

Alright, well I can see why this is being argued. You seem to have a very broken concept of computer technology.

Allow me to help you. There is a MASSIVE difference between adding hardware to a robot (connecting wings) and programming that robot to utilize that hardware (flap the wings). The wings remain nothing more than lumps of useless hardware until you program the robot with the ability to flap them. After you've programmed them with the ability to flap them, they will still NEVER flap without your say so. Even if that say so is designed as an automatic response to external input. You've still told it which situations to use it in beforehand and it WILL NOT pick any other situations to use them in other than the defined situations.

Conversely, a human being looks at the parts it has and figures out how to do INCALCULABLE operations with that hardware. No one is deciding the parameters within which we will move our hands or turn our head. Those are all decided by us internally. Further, experimentation has all but determined that a human being can learn to utilize electronics hardwired into their nervous system. This technology is still in the developmental stages, but it suggests that we will ABSOLUTELY be able to attach mechanical wings to ourselves and use them to fly exactly as a bird uses its naturally grown wings.

To draw one more big, fat, giant, thick line between robots and humans, a robot does not, in any way, shape, or form need to 'learn' to use its components as EVERY form of life is required to do. You cannot use your legs at will from birth. You learn to use them after years of practice. No robot on this planet goes through that process. It either CAN use them exactly as programmed, or it CANNOT use them in absence of that programming.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Can you elaborate?

well the designer has designed you to believe you are in control of your choices...so if this is true, if one is programed to doubt the designer and the idea of being with the designer is to choose to believe in the designer, or the illusion of it...then the joke is on the "robot" as there is nothing the robot can do.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Creating a human life is not the same as making something up as there is already a design to follow with some clear limits to what you can do. A human life is a very specific kind of organism.

i agree which is why i added "making up stories"
robots are not capable of imagination.
see i am more of aright brain type...i cannot understand how mimicking something is considered making something up, like making up stories.

i can redo songs, anyone can...just copy the pre-exsisting melody...that is not the same as coming up with a melody from thin air

Other than this, we already have 'random dungeon generators' for example, does that work as example of ''creating''?
i don't know.

It is rather odd you would choose to stick to strict definitions during some moments but not in others. Dance, for example, is defined as moving 'rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.'. It doesn't require an emotional response of any sort.
of course it does.
ok...there are all sorts of ways in which an individual would choose to express themselves in dance....most bob their head to the rhythm ...others move their hips, and some move their arms...i am talking about personal expression...if all robots being equal...they would express themselves the same way.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
That's so false, it's ridiculous. Can you decide not to react to your hand touching a fire, or is that programming you didn't program yourself? You could ignore feeding yourself, and most likely die. Can you program yourself to not die of starvation?

Again, you seem to have no concept of the difference between hardware and software.

Actually I provided a link earlier that showed that computers can act on their own - improvise, if that's what you mean. Computers can be programmed for greater self-sufficiency just as we are. There are robots are out there right now, with the programming to replenish themselves with energy as they need.

Yes, I saw that link which talked about human beings programming drones to react to more situations without constant human monitoring. Please explain how this is improvisation as opposed to HUMAN BEINGS PROGRAMMING DRONES.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Alright, well I can see why this is being argued. You seem to have a very broken concept of computer technology.

Allow me to help you. There is a MASSIVE difference between adding hardware to a robot (connecting wings) and programming that robot to utilize that hardware (flap the wings). The wings remain nothing more than lumps of useless hardware until you program the robot with the ability to flap them. After you've programmed them with the ability to flap them, they will still NEVER flap without your say so. Even if that say so is designed as an automatic response to external input. You've still told it which situations to use it in beforehand and it WILL NOT pick any other situations to use them in other than the defined situations.

You don't realize that you also have 'defined situations?'

Conversely, a human being looks at the parts it has and figures out how to do INCALCULABLE operations with that hardware. No one is deciding the parameters within which we will move our hands or turn our head. Those are all decided by us internally.

Internally by what? Your programming. Improvisation.. I have the link if you'd like to see it. It can all be programmed.

Further, experimentation has all but determined that a human being can learn to utilize electronics hardwired into their nervous system. This technology is still in the developmental stages, but it suggests that we will ABSOLUTELY be able to attach mechanical wings to ourselves and use them to fly exactly as a bird uses its naturally grown wings.

Sounds like backwards compatibility to me. Why can't a robot be programmed (like we are) to decide to attach a human leg to itself?

To draw one more big, fat, giant, thick line between robots and humans, a robot does not, in any way, shape, or form need to 'learn' to use its components as EVERY form of life is required to do. You cannot use your legs at will from birth. You learn to use them after years of practice. No robot on this planet goes through that process. It either CAN use them exactly as programmed, or it CANNOT use them in absence of that programming.

I still think you're missing the point. Just because things haven't been done presently, doesn't mean that they can't.

Some things are learned, not everything. I didn't learn how to open my eyes or cry or breathe or move. I might've learned to do those things with certain levels of precision, but these were already programmed in. Thank God, I didn't have to learn how to breathe. Again, improvisation. I have that link!
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You're still missing the actual point. So.. I'll simplify it further for you. Does light exceed it's speed limit? No. It's supposedly the fastest in the universe. Nothing can push it faster than what it already maxes out at. Like a simple calculator.. It's not going to solve math's most complex equations by it's own accord. It doesn't have that capability, or programming, it only has part of it (the 1+1's and 2x2's, etc.) And like a human.. I'm not going to jump 30 feet in the air unless something helps me do it. I don't have that capability, or programming.

Two parallel lines, not necessarily the same line.

read post #124
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Again, you seem to have no concept of the difference between hardware and software.

I wouldn't say 'no concept.' A little harsh.

Yes, I saw that link which talked about human beings programming drones to react to more situations without constant human monitoring. Please explain how this is improvisation as opposed to HUMAN BEINGS PROGRAMMING DRONES.

One is simpler, whereas the other is more complicated. You know, if you believe in evolution, we didn't exactly start here, ourselves. They have to start somewhere, just like we did.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
You don't realize that you also have 'defined situations?'

Please list the defined situations within which I will open my left eyelid 1mm.

Internally by what? Your programming. Improvisation.. I have the link if you'd like to see it. It can all be programmed.

I've seen it. See my last post.

Sounds like backwards compatibility to me. Why can't a robot be programmed (like we are) to decide to attach a human leg to itself?

Because it cannot decide. It will either do it because its been programmed to do it, or it will not do it because it hasn't been programmed to do it.

I still think you're missing the point. Just because things haven't been done presently, doesn't mean that they can't.

:facepalm:

Yes, but using my godlike power of speculation I can predict that by the time we figure out how to do this we'll also know how to use telekinesis, completely removing our need for machines altogether. See how that works? I would ask you to provide any path whatsoever to this conclusion you've invented, but being that you don't seem to understand how current computers work, I can tell I'd be wasting my time asking you to talk about R&D.

Some things are learned, not everything. I didn't learn how to open my eyes or cry or breathe or move. I might've learned to do those things with certain levels of precision, but these were already programmed in. Thank God, I didn't have to learn how to breathe. Again, improvisation. I have that link!

Again, hardware and software.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
I wouldn't say 'no concept.' A little harsh.

You illustrate it, I just describe what I see. You were essentially telling me a bird is programmed with wings. That is like saying your computer is programmed with a monitor.

One is simpler, whereas the other is more complicated.

Incorrect. They are identical. Electricity on and electricity off. I tried to explain this before but I can see now why you don't get that.

You know, if you believe in evolution, we didn't exactly start here, ourselves. They have to start somewhere, just like we did.

Please, indulge me. Where did we start?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Please list the defined situations within which I will open my left eyelid 1mm.

Ok. Can you open your left eyelid exactly 1mm, by will? Or will a combination of other factors (programming) decide how much your eyelid will open?

Because it cannot decide. It will either do it because its been programmed to do it, or it will not do it because it hasn't been programmed to do it.

Same with you.


:facepalm:

Yes, but using my godlike power of speculation I can predict that by the time we figure out how to do this we'll also know how to use telekinesis, completely removing our need for machines altogether. See how that works? I would ask you to provide any path whatsoever to this conclusion you've invented, but being that you don't seem to understand how current computers work, I can tell I'd be wasting my time asking you to talk about R&D.


Again, hardware and software.

Facepalms, huh? People get so sure of themselves.

I'm willing to bet it's much less a matter of figuring out how to do it, than other factors/resources.

You're so sure of yourself.. Pity me, and educate me somewhat.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You illustrate it, I just describe what I see. You were essentially telling me a bird is programmed with wings. That is like saying your computer is programmed with a monitor.

Is it? I thought for sure that birds had DNA.. And that DNA is what has the bird's programming for making wings?

Incorrect. They are identical. Electricity on and electricity off. I tried to explain this before but I can see now why you don't get that.

Did you explain anything? I remember electricity on and off, but that's it.. Let me go back and look, after all, whatever you say has to be right.. And I should take what you say, and get it. Got that much.

Please, indulge me. Where did we start?

Not sure. Do they still say a single cell?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Absolutely not. Nature is the environment I program myself to react to. Nurture is just as internal since it is the product of the very same life I am part of. Further, I retain the ability to ignore both in any given situation.

I am afraid you can not.
Can you change your nature without using your nature?

You keep telling me that I'm bound by my biology as if this doesn't support my argument. A computer is bound by its biology as well and still can't do anything without a human being telling it what to do and when. My biology is self-sufficient. A computer is a lump of compounds that is useless without a human. It's very clear difference that you illustrate for me over and over. Without the speculation of some external programmer, you can't draw a similarity at all.

Still, although you are self-suficient, you are not your own cause. You didn't create yourself. I don't understand why you see any particular relevancy on the distinction between you being created by a natural process and robots being built by humans. If robots could learn and build other robots, would this be no longer an issue to you?

You seem to think the design is finished. It isn't. We are constantly designing ourselves. Even if I have no clear intention of 'liking chocolate' I am also not bound to that preference either. It could change tomorrow. Today. 10 years from now. Whenever I decide. A computer does not have this ability. It must be changed by a human.

I am not willing to engage into a possible free will debate...yet. So i will see where this line of reasoning is going to before i make a move on its regard.
Why can't a robot be programmed with the ability to change its likings?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
well the designer has designed you to believe you are in control of your choices...so if this is true, if one is programed to doubt the designer and the idea of being with the designer is to choose to believe in the designer, or the illusion of it...then the joke is on the "robot" as there is nothing the robot can do.

Actually, i don't believe in any conscious designer being on control.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
i agree which is why i added "making up stories"
robots are not capable of imagination.
see i am more of aright brain type...i cannot understand how mimicking something is considered making something up, like making up stories.

They are not capable of imagination...yet.
Humans without a brain aren't also capable of imagination.

i can redo songs, anyone can...just copy the pre-exsisting melody...that is not the same as coming up with a melody from thin air

But who said you are coming up with a melody from thin air?
Haven't you considered the possibility that you are using sounds you already know to make new songs?

i don't know.

It is important for you to say whether that works.

of course it does.
ok...there are all sorts of ways in which an individual would choose to express themselves in dance....most bob their head to the rhythm ...others move their hips, and some move their arms...i am talking about personal expression...if all robots being equal...they would express themselves the same way.

The strict definition has absolutely nothing to do with emotional response. This is what i am saying.
Also, all humans being equal, under the same conditions, they would express themselves the same way.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Ok. Can you open your left eyelid exactly 1mm, by will? Or will a combination of other factors (programming) decide how much your eyelid will open?

The first option. Obviously.

Same with you.
Incorrect. I decide all the time. Please demonstrate my lack of decision making. You'll have to show not only what decisions I make but why they were not my decision to make and where they came from. Good luck.

Facepalms, huh? People get so sure of themselves.

I'm willing to bet it's much less a matter of figuring out how to do it, than other factors/resources.

You're so sure of yourself.. Pity me, and educate me somewhat.
Alright. I will. No one is anywhere near the creation of machine life. They aren't even trying in any realistic way. The closest thing we have is people like you speculating about what our future generations MIGHT be capable of. The only other thing that even comes CLOSE is biological and genetic engineering which is definitely not machine life by any stretch of the imagination.

Brilliant programmers are working on more and more advanced artificial intelligence that simply comes closer and closer to mimicking life accurately but at the same time does not come anywhere near it as every single choice it makes must be given to it before hand. There is no difference between a complex AI like you see in advanced robots like the ones they make at MIT and simple AI like the ghosts on Pacman. They respond to specific input with specific output. The only difference is the number of inputs vs. the number of outputs. And every single input must be correlated with every single output manually.

Is it? I thought for sure that birds had DNA.. And that DNA is what has the bird's programming for making wings?

Sure, lets pretend that's what I said. How does one grow a monitor?

Did you explain anything? I remember electricity on and off, but that's it.. Let me go back and look, after all, whatever you say has to be right.. And I should take what you say, and get it. Got that much.
Yeah, I did. I can go further if you are really that disconnected with computer technology that you've never heard of binary code and why it works.

Not sure. Do they still say a single cell?
Haha, so we had to start somewhere and why not in someone's robotics lab, eh?

I am afraid you can not.
Can you change your nature without using your nature?

What exactly does "changing my nature" mean? All I said is that I can ignore it at will. My nature notifies me that I am in pain and there is a neurological function outside of my control which attempts to move me away from that pain. And yet I managed to receive two tattoos without any mistakes. Funny that.

Still, although you are self-suficient, you are not your own cause. You didn't create yourself. I don't understand why you see any particular relevancy on the distinction between you being created by a natural process and robots being built by humans. If robots could learn and build other robots, would this be no longer an issue to you?
Having been created by other humans is a clear distinction, yes. And while the 'first cause' of my existence was not by my design, my current form is the result of many many many many causes afterwards. A vast majority of which were, are, and always will be under my control.

In the case of robots, yes. If they could learn at all I would stop arguing the point. The fact remains that they never gain any new information that is not given to them by a human being. And even when new information is given, a new reaction to that information has to be given to it as well. It has no understanding of the information. It all looks the same. Electricity on and electricity off.

I am not willing to engage into a possible free will debate...yet. So i will see where this line of reasoning is going to before i make a move on its regard.
Why can't a robot be programmed with the ability to change its likings?
Because it doesn't have "likings" to begin with, for one.

You can build a robot with arms and hands and a face and a tongue and a speaker in its mouth. Then you can program it to pick up an ice cream, pull it to its face and lick it, and then proclaim, "I LIKE CHOCOLATE! BEEP BOOP BEEP!" but you haven't really made that robot like chocolate. You've just made a machine for lifting ice cream cones, licking them, and speaking the words.

Lets take it beyond basics. Lets say you are a brilliant engineer and programmer. You could create a robot that looks identical to a human being. You could then program that robot to enter an ice cream shop and have an entire conversation with questions and answers with the clerk and ultimately select a chocolate ice cream to have, pay for it, and devour the entire thing with enthusiasm. You could even go so far as to give the robot the option of selecting any flavor the shop offers and allow it to randomly select one. You could even go so far as to program chocolate to be selected more often than any other flavor and program it to still try all the others and proclaim that it still likes chocolate more than any of the others after trying them all. You could EVEN go so far as to program it with flavors that don't even exist in the shop and make it ask for those even when they aren't available and make it pout every time the chocolate is missing or refused.

But no matter how brilliant you are, no matter how cleverly you design this robot's set of choices, it will never under any circumstances make a choice that you didn't tell it to make. It doesn't even recognize that it is making a choice at all. To the robot there is no difference between getting the chocolate and proclaiming that it loves it and not getting the chocolate and acting upset. It is just moving electricity from the power source to its components in the way you've designed it in both cases. It doesn't like either choice. It doesn't make any choice at all. Its YOU making the choice as the designer.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Evolution.

Yeah, evolution. The complete lack of an external programmer. Life makes more life that has more options. Being the result of a long chain of self-programming does not change the fact that its self-programming.

Really? Fix these, then. :sarcastic

Haha. Woof, what a list :p

Irrationality is a product of choice. How else would it happen? Do you think we are designed to exhibit cognitive bias? To what end? If I do not possess any of these biases, am I then no longer a robot? Or is the simple possibility of them enough to render me automatic?
 
Top