Russia vs Ukraine gets closer to nuclear?

[ImmortalFlame]

lol, come on now. How is having critics and opponents imprisoned, poisoned, or toss out of windows not thuggish behavior.

Now now, I'm sure those were all accidents. I've read about how clumsy a lot of Putin's opponent can be, falling down multiple flights of stairs or ending up somehow beaten to death in prison (presumably by repeatedly falling over onto their own feet and fists). Not to mention all those clumsy people who fell onto all those bullets.

Such a clumsy lot, Putin's political opponents.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you believe powerful countries have the right to determine what defensive alliances other, smaller countries on their borders get to have?

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is a powerful western alliance set up after WWII
to ensure the balance of power. It is failing now, as Russia has decided to stand up for itself.
It refuses to be destroyed by NATO expansion, with missile bases getting closer and closer.

The West DID have a reasonable degree of moral authority after WWII .. it is now descending
into an autocracy, albeit with a facade of democracy. Empires rise .. and they fall.
They fall due to their own complacency and corruption .. just like the Ottoman Empire fell.
The West is no different .. the US administration has been seriously compromised by uncontrolled
Capitalism, with its political institutions unable or unwilling to recognize International law.

..so as to your question, I don't think either Russia OR the US have the right to meddle with
smaller countries affairs .. but of course, they do.

I see that the majority of the world do not share the living standards of the West, with the West having more responsibility for climate-change than the West, and the BRICS alliance is not a collection of thugs,
but a collection of nations that do not agree with the West's domination and manipulation of wealth.

..so the situation does not boil down to "supporting poor old Ukraine", as you infer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your rambling, constantly shifting and extremely evasive answer:

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is a powerful western alliance set up after WWII
to ensure the balance of power. It is failing now, as Russia has decided to stand up for itself.
It refuses to be destroyed by NATO expansion, with missile bases getting closer and closer.

The West DID have a reasonable degree of moral authority after WWII .. it is now descending
into an autocracy, albeit with a facade of democracy. Empires rise .. and they fall.
They fall due to their own complacency and corruption .. just like the Ottoman Empire fell.
The West is no different .. the US administration has been seriously compromised by uncontrolled
Capitalism, with its political institutions unable or unwilling to recognize International law.

..so as to your question, I don't think either Russia OR the US have the right to meddle with
smaller countries affairs .. but of course, they do.

I see that the majority of the world do not share the living standards of the West, with the West having more responsibility for climate-change than the West, and the BRICS alliance is not a collection of thugs,
but a collection of nations that do not agree with the West's domination and manipulation of wealth.

..so the situation does not boil down to "supporting poor old Ukraine", as you infer.

Your answer, edited by me:

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is blah blah blah

..so as to your question, I don't think either Russia OR the US have the right to meddle with smaller countries affairs (SNIP)

Done!

So, you have just acknowledged that Russia has absolutely no right to impose demands on Ukraine regarding what military alliances it chooses to enter into with other states, and they have no right to threaten them with military force to do so.

Congratulations. Welcome to my side. Now, explain to me again why it's the USA's fault that Russia's constant meddling and annexing made Ukraine want to join NATO.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your rambling, constantly shifting and extremely evasive answer:
...
So, you have just acknowledged that Russia has absolutely no right to impose demands on Ukraine regarding what military alliances it chooses to enter into with other states, and they have no right to threaten them with military force to do so.

I think Russia has a right to defend itself from an aggressive West, that has been increasing its missile bases in Eastern Europe that are pointing at it, closer and closer to its territory.

I do not think that BRICS is an alliance of 'thugs'.
Corruption is rife amongst the very rich, and the very poor.

I know what the answer is .. but human nature being what it is, we all have to put up with this
constant battle between man made ideologies.
i.e. Capitalism and Communism

 

[BrightShadow]

You understand them taking a loss means living under a dictator?
I don't blame them. I too would rather fight and die than lay down and accept living under dictator scum.

Really? You would rather fight and die?
Don't you think Trump will be a dictator this time around? So, are you getting ready to fight and die?


First of all - Ukraine was never a true example of 'democracy'.
Ukraine was somewhere in between a democracy and dictatorship. It has/had a government run by a group of rich and powerful people (oligarchs). So people's right were routinely violated there - just like under any dictatorship.
So, it would be the same for every day Ukrainians - whether they are under Ukraine's leadership or under Russian rule.
It is the same difference!


Second of all - the solution to the conflict - would not require entire Ukraine to be under Putin. ONLY the Russian speaking portions! The rest of Ukraine could continue to live under their very own oligarchy regime.


Third of all - almost half the population of the world is living under a dictatorship of one sort or another.
All dictators are not the same though. Not everyone is Kim Jong or Xi Jinping.

Check this out...

Democracy-Dictatorship Index - Wikipedia

Do you think before the conflict began - Russians weren't happy in their own country? I can assure you that they were very happy because their so-called dictator wasn't financing another regime who are busy using their resources - killing innocent lives in the name of 'defense'.
Months and months of systematic killings of Palestinian women and children in the name of "defense"!

Trust me - in a pre-war era - you could have visited Russia and not even realized they were under any so-called dictatorship. No one would have poked you even with a toothpick.

Under Putin we have had 2014 Winter Olympics (Sochi), we have had 2018 World Cup Soccer (Men's). Did we experience any problem visiting Russia?

So, why would you think - everyday Russians or a portion of Russian speaking Ukrainians would rather die than live under Putin?

Do you think Putin could successfully continue his campaign in Ukraine without a firm support from the majority of Russian folks?


Disclaimer:
I am NOT endorsing dictatorship around the world but my point was -the world is not ready for our kind of democracy because they don't have a constitution like ours that would 'separate the powers'.

Whoever takes the office - has the potential to become a dictator. You replace one and another takes over!

There are many instances where fighting and dying is a meaningless option - because all you can do is replace one 'oligarchy' regime with another. Many folks in those parts of the world have realized it and are doing just fine. Let them be,

Everyday Ukrainians will not have a problem living under Putin or whoever they got.

In Ukraine - all politicians, judges and law enforcement are tightly connected and work like a one big happy family of dictators. They are corrupted to their bare bones. Now, thanks to Biden - they are all filthy rich.

You are wearing a pair of Dem's sunshades. So you are unlikely to realize that Ukraine is, always was - and will be a 'Sham Democracy'.


Even here, under our own democratic government - I hope you are not happy when our government remains quiet and supply weaponry and allow massive number of people killed in Gaza (over 41 thousand in recent days).

Maybe you were happy during the last few years but I am NOT happy when the taxpayer money was spent to protect Ukrainian border when our own border remained unsecured. Our own infrastructure remained unattended.
China, N. Korea, Iran and few other members of BRICS became allies of Russia under Biden's watch. And they became allies in way - never seen before.

So, even under our democratic government - half the country can feel they are under an oligarch regime where the 'establishment' is making all the decisions.

Yes! By the people, of the people BUT definitely not 'for' the people!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think Russia has a right to defend itself from an aggressive West, that has been increasing its missile bases in Eastern Europe that are pointing at it, closer and closer to its territory.

Not aggressive. NATO has made absolutely zero aggressive actions towards Russia, ever. If NATO were some nefarious, anti-Russian cooperative seeking to threaten and isolate Russia, why exactly were Ukraine denied membership in 2008, and why has Russia itself also expressed an interest in joining?

I do not think that BRICS is an alliance of 'thugs'.

Do you think Putin, a man who has presided over multiple invasions of other territories, regularly threatens violence when not complied with, jails, beats and murders his political opponents and constantly projects a strongman persona is a "thug"?

Corruption is rife amongst the very rich, and the very poor.

Russia invading Ukraine. What's your moral opinion on that?

I know what the answer is .. but human nature being what it is, we all have to put up with this
constant battle between man made ideologies.
i.e. Capitalism and Communism

Waxing lyrical about human nature, capitalism and communism is all gravy.

Now, as to why you apparently believe Ukraine should be denied national sovereignty or the right to enter voluntary defensive military alliances to prevent them from being invaded by a country that has meddled with their political system, shot their citizens and annexed their territory, and why Russia's subsequent invasion of them can be blamed on America. Anything to say for your explicitly pro-imperialist position?

 

[Father Heathen]

I wonder if the Putin Apologists here in America would be making the same arguments had Russia invaded Alaska instead of Ukraine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Really? You would rather fight and die?
Don't you think Trump will be a dictator this time around? So, are you getting ready to fight and die?


First of all - Ukraine was never a true example of 'democracy'.
Ukraine was somewhere in between a democracy and dictatorship. It has/had a government run by a group of rich and powerful people (oligarchs). So people's right were routinely violated there - just like under any dictatorship.
So, it would be the same for every day Ukrainians - whether they are under Ukraine's leadership or under Russian rule.
It is the same difference!


Second of all - the solution to the conflict - would not require entire Ukraine to be under Putin. ONLY the Russian speaking portions! The rest of Ukraine could continue to live under their very own oligarchy regime.


Third of all - almost half the population of the world is living under a dictatorship of one sort or another.
All dictators are not the same though. Not everyone is Kim Jong or Xi Jinping.

Check this out...

Democracy-Dictatorship Index - Wikipedia

Do you think before the conflict began - Russians weren't happy in their own country? I can assure you that they were very happy because their so-called dictator wasn't financing another regime who are busy using their resources - killing innocent lives in the name of 'defense'.
Months and months of systematic killings of Palestinian women and children in the name of "defense"!

Trust me - in a pre-war era - you could have visited Russia and not even realized they were under any so-called dictatorship. No one would have poked you even with a toothpick.

Under Putin we have had 2014 Winter Olympics (Sochi), we have had 2018 World Cup Soccer (Men's). Did we experience any problem visiting Russia?

So, why would you think - everyday Russians or a portion of Russian speaking Ukrainians would rather die than live under Putin?

Do you think Putin could successfully continue his campaign in Ukraine without a firm support from the majority of Russian folks?


Disclaimer:
I am NOT endorsing dictatorship around the world but my point was -the world is not ready for our kind of democracy because they don't have a constitution like ours that would 'separate the powers'.

Whoever takes the office - has the potential to become a dictator. You replace one and another takes over!

There are many instances where fighting and dying is a meaningless option - because all you can do is replace one 'oligarchy' regime with another. Many folks in those parts of the world have realized it and are doing just fine. Let them be,

Everyday Ukrainians will not have a problem living under Putin or whoever they got.

In Ukraine - all politicians, judges and law enforcement are tightly connected and work like a one big happy family of dictators. They are corrupted to their bare bones. Now, thanks to Biden - they are all filthy rich.

You are wearing a pair of Dem's sunshades. So you are unlikely to realize that Ukraine is, always was - and will be a 'Sham Democracy'.


Even here, under our own democratic government - I hope you are not happy when our government remains quiet and supply weaponry and allow massive number of people killed in Gaza (over 41 thousand in recent days).

Maybe you were happy during the last few years but I am NOT happy when the taxpayer money was spent to protect Ukrainian border when our own border remained unsecured. Our own infrastructure remained unattended.
China, N. Korea, Iran and few other members of BRICS became allies of Russia under Biden's watch. And they became allies in way - never seen before.

So, even under our democratic government - half the country can feel they are under an oligarch regime where the 'establishment' is making all the decisions.

Yes! By the people, of the people BUT definitely not 'for' the people!

Let's see...

"Ukraine not a "proper" democracy". Check that.
"We should just allow Russia to annex territory if they speak Russian", check.
"Dictatorships are basically the same as democracies", check.
"USA does bad things to Palestine, so it helping Ukraine is also somehow bad", big check there.
"Ukraine is corrupt (citation needed)", chekaroo.
"Russia is fine, actually, with no issues whatsoever", cheeeeck.
Ooooo, and the rarest one of all:
"Taxpayer money going to defend Ukraine border but not our border despite them being completely different budgets, me no likey" check!

I think I just filled my "apologist for imperialist aggression" bingo card! And it just took ONE POST!

Remarkable.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Install missiles USA all borders towards Russia.

Where are these missiles and when were they placed there?

Call all neighbors of Russia to join NATO.

Nobody in NATO has ever called anyone to join NATO.

Every country that ever joined did so at their own request.
And the vast majority of them, weren't even neighbors of Russia.

So you're wrong here on both accounts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..since when, has a gallop poll been non-anonymous?
You have bought in to the western narrative .. nothing strange about that.

Knowledge is the key to understanding conflicts .. not ad hominem.

"ad hominem"? lol

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Putin is ready to talk ..

No, he's not.
He's only ready to listen to Ukraine surrendering.

Read carefully what he actually says. He says he is ready for peace "which includes Russia achieving all its goals".
Meaning he's ready to accept Ukraine's unconditional surrender and give Russia everything it is demanding.

but the West does not negotiate with "thugs".

Negotiation demands both sides to be of good faith and ready to compromise.
The Kremlin doesn't give that impression at all. Au contraire.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is failing now, as Russia has decided to stand up for itself.
It refuses to be destroyed by NATO expansion, with missile bases getting closer and closer.

The West DID have a reasonable degree of moral authority after WWII .. it is now descending
into an autocracy, albeit with a facade of democracy. Empires rise .. and they fall.
They fall due to their own complacency and corruption .. just like the Ottoman Empire fell.
The West is no different .. the US administration has been seriously compromised by uncontrolled
Capitalism, with its political institutions unable or unwilling to recognize International law.

..so as to your question, I don't think either Russia OR the US have the right to meddle with
smaller countries affairs .. but of course, they do.

I see that the majority of the world do not share the living standards of the West, with the West having more responsibility for climate-change than the West, and the BRICS alliance is not a collection of thugs,
but a collection of nations that do not agree with the West's domination and manipulation of wealth.

..so the situation does not boil down to "supporting poor old Ukraine", as you infer.

Somebody has been drinking the russian kool-aid

 

[stvdv]

Putin orders his gigantic "Satan II" nukes to be on Combat Duty 'soon'

As a reaction to USA's and England's actions

Range 18000 km:
e.g. Moskow - L.A = 10000 km
e.g. Moskow - N.Y = 8000 km

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think Russia has a right to defend itself from an aggressive West, that has been increasing its missile bases in Eastern Europe that are pointing at it, closer and closer to its territory.

More lies. There are no "missiles pointed at russia" in eastern europe.
What does exist, are missile defenses, to intercept incoming missiles flying into europe.


Please, there is no need at all to put missiles pointing at russia in eastern europe at all.
ICBM's all the way from the US, French submarines, the UK, etc etc etc are more then capable of reaching Russia, or any other place on the planet for that matter.
Russia has the same capability (or at least: they are supposed to).

It would be completely unnecessary to add such missiles to eastern europe.
What eastern europe has, is ballistic missile defense.

So what Russia doesn't like, what it calls a "threat", is that it can't just attack whenever it wants to and be succesfull without consequence.

If Russia isn't interested in firing missiles to europe, why would it be opposed to a european defense shield?

 

[wellwisher]

Russia vs Ukraine seems to get closer to nuclear

In response to Ukraine's first use of the US-supplied weapon, Moscow on Thursday used its new Oreshnik experimental hypersonic missile, which Putin hinted was capable of carrying a nuclear payload.

He warned Russia could continue using the weapon depending on "the actions of the United States and its satellites" and said Moscow had the right to hit military facilities in countries that allow Ukraine to use their weapons against Russia

What is causing this is the DNC and swamp are trying to sabotage Trump, before they leave. When Biden allowed the long range missile strike into Russia, that started this latest escalation. Why did he do that? Escalation! Once Trump becomes President and the Swamp is declawed, there will be a shift in policy and a peace process will begin.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not aggressive. NATO has made absolutely zero aggressive actions towards Russia, ever. If NATO were some nefarious, anti-Russian cooperative seeking to threaten and isolate Russia, why exactly were Ukraine denied membership in 2008, and why has Russia itself also expressed an interest in joining?

Or why does Russia even still exist?
To be perfectly honest...............

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Putin orders his gigantic "Satan II" nukes to be on Combat Duty 'soon'

Do the new versions still explode inside the silo?

As a reaction to USA's and England's actions

Range 18000 km:
e.g. Moskow - L.A = 10000 km
e.g. Moskow - N.Y = 8000 km

So what. It's not like he's going to fire them anywhere - certainly not with a nuclear load.
If he even can fire them, that is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is causing this is the DNC and swamp are trying to sabotage Trump, before they leave. When Biden allowed the long range missile strike into Russia, that started this latest escalation.

Ow, really? North Korean boots on the ground wasn't an escalation?

Why did he do that? Escalation!

Or a response to North Korean boots on the ground?

Once Trump becomes President and the Swamp is declawed, there will be a shift in policy and a peace process will begin.

Yeah, a "peace process". AKA handing over Ukraine to the dictator to do with as he pleases and which buys him time to regroup and re-arm and then invade again to take whatever's left of the country - fully expecting to get away with it again. And then the same in the south with moldova, georgie, etc.

 

[Godobeyer]

Where are these missiles and when were they placed there?

It's old new stories, Russia is almost surround by USA bases and missiles.

If NATO is not a oppose to Russia, so why supply Ukraine?
Why don't stay neutral?

Nobody in NATO has ever called anyone to join NATO.

Every country that ever joined did so at their own request.
And the vast majority of them, weren't even neighbors of Russia.

So you're wrong here on both accounts.

Yes i miss expression.
For sure it's individual join. Request.
I believe NATO made to face Russia.
Soviet Union before.
It's for sure there were indirect invitation to all Western countries next to Russia.
So Russia totally surrounded by NATO.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Putin orders his gigantic "Satan II" nukes to be on Combat Duty 'soon'

As a reaction to USA's and England's actions

Which "actions" are those? Sounds a bit weirdly vague, that. As if you're trying to imply the USA and UK have attacked Russia in some way.

Gee, could you be referring to the USA and UK providing aid to Ukraine to help them fend off a Russian invasion? Something that they are perfectly right to do considering that doing so was part of a non-proliferation treaty agreement to PROTECT AND ASSIST UKRAINE AGAINST MILITARY AGGRESSION that was, hilariously enough, ALSO AGREED TO BY RUSSIA?

​

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

See section 4.

So, in other words, Russia is reacting to the UK and USA doing exactly what they (and Russia) agreed to do, and to exactly what Russia agreed not to do as per the multiple treaties Russia had with Ukraine the guaranteed sovereign borders and peace. So Russia is threatening nuclear arms against other nations for honouring the treaties and agreements that Russia broke.

And why should we capitulate to tyrants, again?