Santa Clause?

[Valjean]

I consider this to be no more of a lie than being an actor in a play. Only in this case, I'm playing the character.

The audience for a play understand that it's just a play. Santa is represented as an ontological reality. It discourages critical thinking in children and primes them for pigeonholing and accepting contradictory facts without question -- or even notice.
Childhood is a critical developmental period. It should be used to teach reason and analysis, not faith.

My parents not only lied to me, but threatened me whenever I raised questions or appeared skeptical around my younger siblings. I never forgave them for this.

 

[Valjean]

Christians make a distinction between miracles and magic.

The former are supernatural phenomena that come from God. The latter is supernatural phenomena from other sources, i.e. humans, Satan, etc.

So same thing, different source? It sounds like a pretty nebulous distinction. How does one recognize the source?

 

[SalixIncendium]

The audience for a play understand that it's just a play. Santa is represented as an ontological reality. It discourages critical thinking in children and primes them for pigeonholing and accepting contradictory facts without question -- or even notice.
Childhood is a critical developmental period. It should be used to teach reason and analysis, not faith.

My parents not only lied to me, but threatened me whenever I raised questions or appeared skeptical around my younger siblings. I never forgave them for this.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but I must disagree with your assessment on damaging critical thinking. I think it encourages it. How many people do you know past adolescence that still believe in Santa Claus?

I started a thread yesterday about how people stopped believing in Santa. While some discovered bumbles made parents, some figured it out through critical thinking. And this was my experience as well, as it was the experience my children of many I've spoken to.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So same thing, different source?

In the way that they are both considered supernatural phenomena? Yes.

It sounds like a pretty nebulous distinction. How does one recognize the source?

I don't know. I'm not a Christian. You'd have to ask one.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The audience for a play understand that it's just a play.

I also wanted to address this point, but forgot until now. Part of the thrill of a play, especially for the child, is the immersion in the reality presented by the play. If one were going to a play constantly reminding oneself that it was only a play and the characters weren't real, how much would that person enjoy the play?

A child doesn't think like an adult. It just another reality to a young child. Heck, I was about 4 or 5 when I realized there weren't actually little people inside the radio that sat on the refrigerator talking every morning...and a bit older when I realized the people and animals on TV weren't actually dying.

 

[Valjean]

I'm sorry this happened to you, but I must disagree with your assessment on damaging critical thinking. I think it encourages it. How many people do you know past adolescence that still believe in Santa Claus?

It blurs the distinction between fantasy and reality, at a time a child's ROM or operating system is being formed, before critical thinking is learned. Uncritical acceptance of contradictory facts becomes hard-wired. I suspect this influences later unquestion faith in God or religious legends.

The Santa and Easter bunny legends are so variable and experientially unsupportable that children usually catch on.

I started a thread yesterday about how people stopped believing in Santa. While some discovered bumbles made parents, some figured it out through critical thinking. And this was my experience as well, as it was the experience my children of many I've spoken to.

I remember sitting in a diner with my parents and siblings and asking how Santa could visit "all the children in the world," with presents for all, in a single night, with a single sleigh. I got a dirty look.
How was this not discouraging critical thinking and retarding intellectual development?

 

[Valjean]

I also wanted to address this point, but forgot until now. Part of the thrill of a play, especially for the child, is the immersion in the reality presented by the play. If one were going to a play constantly reminding oneself that it was only a play and the characters weren't real, how much would that person enjoy the play?

A child doesn't think like an adult. It just another reality to a young child. Heck, I was about 4 or 5 when I realized there weren't actually little people inside the radio that sat on the refrigerator talking every morning...and a bit older when I realized the people and animals on TV weren't actually dying.

But isn't thinking like an adult a desirable developmental goal, like language or reading? Shouldn't parents endeavor to teach their children how to think, as well as speak and dress themselves?

 

[SalixIncendium]

The Santa and Easter bunny legends are so variable and experientially unsupportable that children usually catch on.

Yet they many of them still believe in gods. What do you think the difference is there?

I remember sitting in a diner with my parents and siblings and asking how Santa could visit "all the children in the world," with presents for all, in a single night, with a single sleigh. I got a dirty look.
How was this not discouraging critical thinking and retarding intellectual development?

I would imagine that if the question was asked in front of siblings, the "dirty look" might have been a "so you figured it out...don't ruin it for your younger siblings," but that's just based on my very limited information. I wasn't there, so I can only draw conclusion based on what you tell me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But isn't thinking like an adult a desirable developmental goal, like language or reading? Shouldn't parents endeavor to teach their children how to think, as well as speak and dress themselves?

To an extent. I think parents are often too quick to make their kids think like adults, thus removing the joy of fantasy and the resulting creative thinking it brings.

Sure, critical thinking is important, but do you think it should be instilled at the expense of creative thinking?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Did you teach your kids to believe in Santa? Why or why not? My sister told her kids the truth and that Santa was a lie and wrong because it teaches the belief in magic. My other two sisters taught their kids to believe.

No, my husband and I didn't raise our children (five daughters and two sons) to believe in Santa Claus. First, we believed, and still do, that it would be an outright lie to tell our children that Santa is real when it isn't true. We believed, and still do, that we should be honest with our children. My husband and I built our relationship on trust and transparency with our children while they were growing up, which continues to this day. Here are the reasons why we chose not to tell our children: First, we believed that we couldn't teach our children not to lie and that lying was wrong if we deliberately lied to them about Santa or about anything else. Secondly, my husband and I believed that if we told our children that Santa is real (who they couldn't see in person) and they found out we lied to them, then they might also believe that we lied to them about God being real (who they also couldn't see in person). And lastly, there isn't a jolly old man with a white beard in a red suit with the supernatural godlike attributes to know when children around the world are sleeping, when they're awake, or whether they've been naughty or nice. There isn't a jolly old man with a white beard in a red suit who travels the world from the North Pole in one night on a sleigh pulled by eight flying reindeer (one of them with a shiny red nose) in order to give presents to every child on earth. There isn't a jolly old man with a white beard in a red suit who repeatedly commits the crime of breaking and entering by magically sliding down chimneys to leave presents for children in countless homes around the world in one night. As I said, this is what my husband and I believed, and still do.

My husband grew up knowing that Santa wasn't real because his parents never told him or his sisters that he was. I, on the other hand, was told that he was real, but once I realized he wasn't, I resented that my parents (and family) lied to me. I think I was 10 or 11 when I finally realized it. I can't remember how old I was. I realized it after I saw a crochet lion that had "From Santa" on it, but I had seen my mother making it when she thought I was asleep in bed. I saw other presents to me and my brother with "From Santa" on the wrapping lying on the floor. I was so upset about being lied to that when we went to my grandmother's house, not long after I found out, I told my younger cousin (4 years younger) that Santa wasn't real. I was spanked and shamed for that, and my relatives told my cousin that I lied to him, which of course made me even more resentful towards them and my parents. I hated Christmas after that, and as a teenager, these memories were etched in my mind, so I promised myself that I'd never lie to my children about Santa Claus, and I haven't.

My husband and I faithfully stuck with our convictions throughout the years during the Christmas season while our children were growing up. We endured endless angry lectures about how we were depriving our children of "the magic of Christmas" from my mother and other relatives, other parents in school, other Christian parents in church, and complete strangers in the store where we were shopping after the store clerk or some other random stranger asked our children what Santa was bringing them for Christmas or if they'd written their letters to Santa Claus yet. And we stood our ground despite my mother's initial stubborn insistance that "We're having Santa in my house!" but she gave up after three years of us not coming to her house for Christmas because of her blatant disrespect for us as the parents of her grandchildren. This was years before I became estranged from my parents and our extended family over other personal conflicts between us. There was another incident that occurred relating to Santa Claus when my oldest son was in second grade. He got into trouble with his teacher for telling his friend (who then told her other friends) that Santa wasn't real. He was punished for telling the truth. I picked him up from school the day before Christmas break, and he was very upset and crying. I asked what was wrong, and he told me. I was livid, so I took him home and told my husband. He called the school and arranged a meeting with our son's teacher and the principal the next morning. By the end of the meeting, both the teacher and principal apologized to me and my husband, and the teacher apologized to our son. I'm called "Mama Bear" for a reason.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yeah...some of those nature books are remarkably incomplete!

Well, yes....but! A caribou taking a dump on the wing would certainly be noticeable to those on the ground.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My parents not only lied to me, but threatened me whenever I raised questions or appeared skeptical around my younger siblings. I never forgave them for this.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive.

Wouldn't a web without tangles just be a strand?

 

[Heyo]

Cool. Didn't know Germany celebrated that to.

More or less and with regional variations. Where I grew up, I could see Eemshaven (NL) on a clear day, so our customs were similar to those just over the border.

Is it also the lore where he travels the roofs on a white horse, with his helpers?

I've never seen him on the roofs but yes, sometimes he had a horse and sometimes it was white.

Does he also come by boat from Spain?

Never heard that one.

This guy?

View attachment 85548

I really thought it was almost exclusively a Belgian / Dutch thing.

Somewhat similar. He has one helper named "Knecht Ruprecht", basically the German Zwarte Piet.

 

[Heyo]

We here don't really do the Santa Claus thing, but the Sinterklaas thing is quite huge in belgium and the netherlands.
Just about all children go through it. As a parent you don't even need to tell them anything. They pick it up from everywhere. TV, school, friends,...
And they absolutely believe it from age 3 to age 5, 6 or 7.

Magical thinking a very human thing - but I'm a mutant. I never believed in Saint Nicholas, the Easter bunny or gods or ghosts.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Did you teach your kids to believe in Santa? Why or why not? My sister told her kids the truth and that Santa was a lie and wrong because it teaches the belief in magic. My other two sisters taught their kids to believe.

If I had kids, I'd share Santa with them, yes. I don't think I ever really believed in it but you don't need to believe in it to enjoy it. Nothing wrong with children believing in it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The audience for a play understand that it's just a play. Santa is represented as an ontological reality. It discourages critical thinking in children and primes them for pigeonholing and accepting contradictory facts without question -- or even notice.
Childhood is a critical developmental period. It should be used to teach reason and analysis, not faith.

My parents not only lied to me, but threatened me whenever I raised questions or appeared skeptical around my younger siblings. I never forgave them for this.

You are not entirely correct here.
As I said in my rather long post. The world is perceived as a magical place by toddlers. There is nothing wrong with catering to that magic-aspect of it till the age of 6-7. In fact it's very healthy for their psychological development. Another important aspect of their development is finding out by themselves how it in fact is not magical.

However as a parent, you need to approach that correctly.
Discouraging questions, threatening them for asking questions, etc is obviously not the way to go about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm sorry this happened to you, but I must disagree with your assessment on damaging critical thinking. I think it encourages it. How many people do you know past adolescence that still believe in Santa Claus?

I started a thread yesterday about how people stopped believing in Santa. While some discovered bumbles made parents, some figured it out through critical thinking. And this was my experience as well, as it was the experience my children of many I've spoken to.

Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of it from a psychological standpoint.
Have them figure it out for themselves and actually encourage that critical thinking skill.
Don't discourage it, don't try to stop it, don't attempt to "uphold the lie".
But let it run its natural course. Play the game as long as you need to, but once they start questioning it, don't demotivate it. The opposite is what should be done, while never handing them the answers.

The child here is in the driver seat. Some kids enter that critical stage at 5, some only at 7. It's totally fine.
Just don't stand in the way of that natural development and then you did your job well.

 

[Heyo]

You are not entirely correct here.
As I said in my rather long post. The world is perceived as a magical place by toddlers. There is nothing wrong with catering to that magic-aspect of it till the age of 6-7. In fact it's very healthy for their psychological development. Another important aspect of their development is finding out by themselves how it in fact is not magical.

However as a parent, you need to approach that correctly.
Discouraging questions, threatening them for asking questions, etc is obviously not the way to go about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "magical world". Many people seem to think that children can't discern reality from fiction. I think they don't give children enough credit. Most of them have a rational world view at the age of three or four. They just have a tendency to suspend incredulity in order to have fun. Ask them and they will tell you that it's all made up.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It blurs the distinction between fantasy and reality, at a time a child's ROM or operating system is being formed, before critical thinking is learned. Uncritical acceptance of contradictory facts becomes hard-wired.

No. Toddlers have no critical thinking skill. That develops through age 4-6. Before that, the world is filled with magic.
Figuring out it isn't, is in fact the forming of their critical thinking skill.

I suspect this influences later unquestion faith in God or religious legends.

It doesn't. At least not as long as you don't suppress that natural development of critical thinking.
Let it run its natural course. Don't stand in the way. When the child starts asking questions, don't answer them with "shut up". Also don't answer them directly, let the child figure it out.
Like "...but how is it possible santa visits all those children in the world in only one night?"
You could answer "well, he doesn't, he's not real. now go to bed"
OR, you could answer "that's a good question. why do you ask? and what do you think the answer is? And why?"

Which answer do you think will benefit the child most in terms of developing a critical thinking skill?

I remember sitting in a diner with my parents and siblings and asking how Santa could visit "all the children in the world," with presents for all, in a single night, with a single sleigh. I got a dirty look.

LOL! I swear I didn't read this before my previous comment. Replying as I read.
So, there you go... your parents didn't manage that well.

Nevertheless.... you seem to have turned out okay as well, no?
Incidently, my son when he brought it up 2 months ago, did it when his 4-year old sister was in the car with us. I shut him up and told him "we'll talk at home, your sister doesn't need to hear this yet". He immediately understood.
Then at home we had a good chat. I didn't deny nor confirm. I didn't give him any dirty looks. I answered every one of his questions with another question. I let him do all the thinking.

Children are very smart you know... There is no need to spoonfeed them when it comes to stuff like this.
Now, not only did he figure it all out by himself, he also -out of his own freewill- helps me keep the magic alive for his sister till such time that she figures it out as well.

How was this not discouraging critical thinking and retarding intellectual development?

Yes, shutting the kids up like your parents apparently did, is not the way to go about this.