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Santa Clause?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you mean by "magical world". Many people seem to think that children can't discern reality from fiction. I think they don't give children enough credit. Most of them have a rational world view at the age of three or four. They just have a tendency to suspend incredulity in order to have fun. Ask them and they will tell you that it's all made up.
I've read a lot on this subject when I became a parent. I'll try and keep it short...

Pretty much from the day we are born, we are sort of on a quest to understand the world.
Till the age of 2-3, we pretty much simply accept whatever we're being told.
After that, we take our first steps in reasoning on our own. Imagination plays a big role in this also.
This reasoning starts with pure magical thinking. Over the course of the next several years, there's a process where that magical thinking makes way for actual rational reasoning.

Interestingly, studies have shown that most kids have stronger beliefs in things like Santa at the age of 5 as opposed as the age of 3. And this is literally due to our first reasoning steps. In an attempt to understand to world, through our imagination, we build mental models to try and explain things.
We see "clues" and "evidence" of santa everywhere: cocal cola ads, santa's at shopping malls, gifts showing up under the tree, etc. All this supports his existence.
As we grow older, we learn more things and start figuring out that some of those clues can be explained in other ways also. We also learn additional things that don't fit that mental model (like deer can't fly).

Off course the santa model is fed to us by society. But we also make up our own "magic" to explain things we pick up in daily life.
For example, we are in bed and hear sound on the roof. We conclude there are people walking on the roof. We don't consider pigeons.
We see a shade and conclude there are monsters under the bed.
We make up imaginary friends. etc.

This is why it is so important to try and have kids figure out for themselves as much as possible. Don't hand them the answers, let them figure it out themselves.
It's important to encourage their thinking and their experiments.

When a toddler starts playing with an egg, it's learning all kinds of things. Most parents will say "NO, you can't do that, you're gonna break it, put it away / give it to me!" because they don't want to clean up a mess. This kills the child's curiosity and creativity. No... let them play with it. Let them make a mess. Let them figure out that an object can seem "hard" yet fragile. Let them wonder about that gooye stuff on the inside. What is it? Why is it sticky? What's that yellow stuff in the middle?

:)

I'm reminded now also of when my son was 10 months old. He'ld cry his lungs out when I left the room, as many babies do. The psychology behind that is not "i don't want to be alone". It rather is the baby thinking that the things he can't see, aren't part of existence. When I disappear from sight, to the baby it's like disappearing from existence itself. It's no longer there so it has no understanding that it will return again.
Such things are pure magical thinking. Just like later on in toddler life a shade or sound is a monster under the bed.


Having children play around and think about various models of the world as attempts of explaining what they see / hear / feel, is extremely important to develop and cultivate their creativity, imagination and critical thinking. And it is pretty much unavoidable that the first models they will develop, will be riddled with magical thinking and made-up stuff from their imagination in an attempt to explain things they do not understand.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We did do santa with our children. It was great fun and they have fond memories of it. No harm done. I used it to teach them about critical thinking and what is good evidence and what is not good evidence when they started to question.
Yep. I think people tend to survive this traditional white lie.

Being an adult you can see why they did it, so I don't think it's really all that big of a deal but it probably wouldn't be bad to raise your kids in the truth of the matter, because they can still enjoy Christmas, enjoy the myth of Santa in the same way Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph the Reindeer is enjoyed, and not having to go through the life experience of discovering Santa isn't real , although one could argue he's real in people's hearts and spirits told through the fables and tales.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
but it probably wouldn't be bad to raise your kids in the truth of the matter
This is where "give them a fish, or teach them how to fish" becomes relevant.

And when it comes to subjects like developing critical thinking skills, I would say it's even better to let them figure out for themselves how to fish and not even teach them that. At best, give them a nudge in the right direction without handing them the answers.

This cultivates their creativity and imagination. Such skills serve them immensly well later in life when it comes to problem solving.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
He was declared a Saint which means he supposedly performed "miracles".
So even if Nicholaas is meant instead of the magic guy that lives at the north pole, it still concerns magic.
I don't think there is any good reason to think miracle and magic are the same.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Yep. I think people tend to survive this traditional white lie.

Being an adult you can see why they did it, so I don't think it's really all that big of a deal but it probably wouldn't be bad to raise your kids in the truth of the matter, because they can still enjoy Christmas, enjoy the myth of Santa in the same way Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph the Reindeer is enjoyed, and not having to go through the life experience of discovering Santa isn't real , although one could argue he's real in people's hearts and spirits told through the fables and tales.
I think it is a leave people alone and let them do what they want kinda thing. It's not that big of a deal either way.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Don't they both describe the same phenomenon, with the same evidence?
Miracle is just something that is thought to be impossible. Magic is the art or practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. Miracle could be done without magic.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Miracle is just something that is thought to be impossible. Magic is the art or practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. Miracle could be done without magic.
Miracle and magic are effect without mechanism. They differ in overtone or innuendo. They are, and denote, the same thing observed from different angles.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Miracle and magic are effect without mechanism.
I disagree with that. In magic there is some work done to cause certain effect, at least it is attempted to use for example charms, spells, or rituals to cause effect.

And miracle is also effect that has some sort of work. For example one could ask God to do something that would look miraculous to non-believer. In that case God is the one doing the miracle and God can be seen as the mechanism. But, that doesn't include charms, spells, or rituals, which is why it is not the same as magic.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
I used to believe in Santa. Then I caught my mom putting gifts under the tree and taking cookies intended for the jolly ole fellow. I never called her out on it. It was just a bummer to learn there was no magical elf guy.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Did you teach your kids to believe in Santa? Why or why not? My sister told her kids the truth and that Santa was a lie and wrong because it teaches the belief in magic. My other two sisters taught their kids to believe.
We didn’t teach them to believe in Santa for two reasons:

1) It’s a lie
2) I always remember my thought when I was told that Santa wasn’t true… “My parents lied to me”.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree with that. In magic there is some work done to cause certain effect, at least it is attempted to use for example charms, spells, or rituals to cause effect.
Charms and incantations are generally regarded as spurious, and stage magic is acknowledged even by practitioners to be simple trickery.
Real magic, as proposed by religious mythology, has no proposed or understood mechanism. Whether it involves "some work done" or not can't be determined.
And miracle is also effect that has some sort of work. For example one could ask God to do something that would look miraculous to non-believer. In that case God is the one doing the miracle and God can be seen as the mechanism. But, that doesn't include charms, spells, or rituals, which is why it is not the same as magic.
Unless the mechanism is understood no assessment of effort can be made. Does speaking or willing something into existence require effort? Who knows? It's magic.

God is not a mechanism. He's an agent; a practitioner. A practitioner is not a mechanism.
Miracle = magic.
 

Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
My only experience with Santa as a child was watching kids at the Mall being persuaded to climb into the lap of a stranger for a photograph (and I noticed that a lot of the smaller kids were crying). Even if I weren't Jewish, I think I still would have been Claustrophobic. :eek:
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
My only experience with Santa as a child was watching kids at the Mall being persuaded to climb into the lap of a stranger for a photograph (and I noticed that a lot of the smaller kids were crying). Even if I weren't Jewish, I think I still would have been Claustrophobic. :eek:
My folks stopped that when I was little. Apparently I vomited all over Santa too many times. It was probably my "anti-consumerist" phase as a toddler. Or fear of middle aged strangers.
 
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