Satan: from Judaism to Christianity

[Jayhawker Soule]

Satan as devil is simply a Christian distortion.

 

[allright]

And of course by Revelation he is an evil old Serpent.

*[/quote]


The evil old Serpent was also in the Garden of Eden

 

[Falvlun]

My question remains: how did the NT writers come to the conclusion that Satan = the Devil, and is responsible for sin/evil?

Are you saying that Satan and the devil are two separate entities?

(And as an aside, I haven't heard many Christians argue that Satan or the Devil are responsible for sin. They make it clear that it is entirely our fault and due to our free-will. Satan was merely the tempter.)

 

[George-ananda]

I am curious how the writers go from the OT (Tanakh) account of Satan (Ha-SaTan) as nothing more than "the accuser/adversary," and following God's orders, to the NT account of Satan being public enemy #1.

Probably because that view of Satan was what was popular at the time the NT was written. We probably don't have a clear written record of how that came to be.

It's not really a question of concern to me now. I think the concept of Satan as a powerful spiritual being is outdated but the concept of evil temptation existing in our minds is real. That is Satan.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Jesus said Satan was bad. Christians sought to justify it using Hebrew scripture. Voila! Lucifer!

 

[Ivan-Michael]

And of course by Revelation he is an evil old Serpent.

*

The evil old Serpent was also in the Garden of Eden[/quote]

The serpent was in the Garden alright, later it became Satan in some parts of the script.
we struggle daily with the Serpent, it's always there within us, clouding our minds, reason and judgement.
I tend to associate the Serpent with the second river in the Garden.
Gikhon, Gihon.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.
The verse alludes to the Serpent in the Garden.
The word "compasseth" in Hebrew Sovev סּוֹבֵב goes around but can also 'Spin' from within.
The word Gihon Hebrew גִּיחוֹן is similar to, with a change of one letter, Gahon, the front side of the body and the Serpent was 'punished' "cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go",
The word Kush,כּוּשׁ when not taken as a geographical place could be deciphered as a: likness בְּצֶלֶם that multiplies/spin and shines.
Three letters, each letter is a word in itself, has a meaning all by itself.
Land is also our bodies, the earth is Land and we are Land, in the law.
The Serpent is that voice inside us, the desire, the whispering desire from our youth, from the time the Hormonal system starts to cloud over our Reason, leading us to Temptation.
You can read that in Ex 3 when Moses was tempted and turne away from the Path by the burning bush.
It also corresponds to Issac's 'blessing'/advice to Esau.
When you push down the anger, the desire, you shall break loose.

 

[Caladan]

I am curious how the writers go from the OT (Tanakh) account of Satan (Ha-SaTan) as nothing more than "the accuser/adversary," and following God's orders, to the NT account of Satan being public enemy #1.

I grew up as a Southern Baptist, but now identify myself as a non-denominational Christian, although I tend to agree with Judaism on its position toward Satan, based off the OT. Throughout the NT, I am finding multiple verses where Satan is directly or indirectly referenced, but then I wonder just how many of those verses are actually referring to Satan as Christians view him.

I am all too familiar with the NT verses and theories behind the Christian view, but what made the writers pick Satan out of the crowd, and place the blame of evil on him? Where is it written that Satan becomes the devil?

It is my understanding that literary works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost are to blame for a lot of the mythology of Satan, that Christians accept as fact.

Also, please don't use Isaiah 14:12 as part of your argument. That entire chapter is clearing talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II).

If you choose to respond, please cite your sources. Thanks!

It's true that there is a vast difference between Satan in the Old Testament and Satan in the New Testament, as in the latter case Satan takes a central role as God's nemesis. However, often I've seen that entire stages of diffusion of ideas and literary stages within the Second Temple Period are left unexplored in this discussion.
While Satan in the OT is largely known to us as the trickster of the Lord's own court in the Book of Job. The New Testament inherited material from Jewish sects and literature which believed in strong dualism and the war between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. In addition, ancient Jewish Enochic literature and lore did indeed endorse the concept of fallen and rebel angels as they were described in their fall and their corruption of men.
It is possible to see an evolution of ideas within Jewish thought, and there is still some debate as to the origin of duality in Jewish and Persian thought and the circulation of such ideas. In Iran and later Zoroastrianism we recognize religious duality in the cosmic battle between the good Lord Ahura Mazda, and the Persian devil Ahriman together with entire hosts of angelic and demonic beings.
We can then see Christianity inheriting Near Eastern and Second Temple Period Jewish beliefs regarding duality and the rise of a Christian 'Sitra Ahra'.

 

[Desert Snake]

It's the same character, the names just changes through time. Unless one is to believe that non-Jewish sources effected The NT as much as that, then it is really is a different (non-Judaism) religion.
It's either one or the other, it's funny how opinions change from Biblical topic to Biblical topic, Is Christianity a branch of Judaism or totally different?

 

[Desert Snake]

The evil old Serpent was also in the Garden of Eden

The serpent was in the Garden alright, later it became Satan in some parts of the script.

According to some Rabbinical opinion the snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan.

 

[Caladan]

It's the same character, the names just changes through time. Unless one is to believe that non-Jewish sources effected The NT as much as that, then it is really is a different (non-Judaism) religion.
It's either one or the other, it's funny how opinions change from Biblical topic to Biblical topic, Is Christianity a branch of Judaism or totally different?

Which posts and points are you addressing specifically?

 

[Desert Snake]

Which posts and points are you addressing specifically?

What do you mean.

 

[Caladan]

What do you mean.

Obviously you are addressing something or someone when you say this:

It's the same character, the names just changes through time. Unless one is to believe that non-Jewish sources effected The NT as much as that, then it is really is a different (non-Judaism) religion.
It's either one or the other, it's funny how opinions change from Biblical topic to Biblical topic, Is Christianity a branch of Judaism or totally different?

I can comment on that, but fist I'm interested to know which members or posts you are addressing here in your post above.

 

[Desert Snake]

Obviously you are addressing something or someone when you say this:



I can comment on that, but I'm interested to know which members or posts you are addressing here in your post above.

The various posts in threads that are of the opinion that Christianity was a 'Jewish sect' not altogether different from Judaism at the time, this argument inevitably comes up in threads regarding the Jerusalem Council incident, and many other topics, even baptism (mikvah). A character like Satan , or the devil, has to be somewhat consistent from the OT to the NT otherwise we are looking at a major theological difference, separating Christianity from the Judaic 'standard' set of beliefs.

 

[Caladan]

The various posts in threads that are of the opinion that Christianity was a 'Jewish sect' not altogether different from Judaism at the time, this argument inevitably comes up in threads regarding the Jerusalem Council incident, and many other topics, even baptism (mikvah). A character like Satan , or the devil, has to be somewhat consistent from the OT to the NT otherwise we are looking at a major theological difference, separating Christianity from the Judaic 'standard' set of beliefs.

I don't think anyone is denying that early Jewish Christians depart in some of their major ideas from mainstream Judaism. But the reality was still that they adhered to Jewish traditions, and in fact the neglect of these traditions is what caused perhaps the first rift among early Christians as the Jewish Christians struggled to preserve their Jewish identity in a growing gentile Christianity.

When it comes to the NT, while it is true that much of the theological content is built on the Jewish Bible (Old Testament) and Jewish beliefs. However, the NT was also written in a Hellenic world, and there are much Greco-Roman influences, including in theological content.

 

[crossfire]

I don't think anyone is denying that early Jewish Christians depart in some of their major ideas from mainstream Judaism. But the reality was still that they adhered to Jewish traditions, and in fact the neglect of these traditions is what caused perhaps the first rift among early Christians as the Jewish Christians struggled to preserve their Jewish identity in a growing gentile Christianity.

When it comes to the NT, while it is true that much of the theological content is built on the Jewish Bible (Old Testament) and Jewish beliefs. However, the NT was also written in a Hellenic world, and there are much Greco-Roman influences, including in theological content.

How much evidence have you found of Hellenistic Buddhism in the area? The NT Satan sounds quite a bit like Buddhist Mara.
Mara (demon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Caladan]

How much evidence have you found of Hellenistic Buddhism in the area? The NT Satan sounds quite a bit like Buddhist Mara.
Mara (demon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While I find this topic fascinating, I also find it allusive when I try to explore it. I certainly saw archaeological evidence for influences between Buddhism and the Hellenic world, you can certainly see it in the art.
There is possibilities that Hellenic deification of rulers influenced the rise of Bodhisattvas. We can see statues depicting Buddhas in Greek togas. But when it comes to tracing Buddhist thought and influence in the Eastern Mediterranean or Palestine and specifically Jewish thought, I don't think its something many scholars are receptive to.

 

[Ivan-Michael]

According to some Rabbinical opinion the snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan.

But of course, I just explained why.

 

[crossfire]

While I find this topic fascinating, I also find it allusive when I try to explore it. I certainly saw archaeological evidence for influences between Buddhism and the Hellenic world, you can certainly see it in the art.
There is possibilities that Hellenic deification of rulers influenced the rise of Bodhisattvas. We can see statues depicting Buddhas in Greek togas. But when it comes to tracing Buddhist thought and influence in the Eastern Mediterranean or Palestine and specifically Jewish thought, I don't think its something many scholars are receptive to.

Yeah, I agree. Uphold the status quo. :/

{I still wanna know which tradition the wise men from the East were from, because they sound quite similar to Tibetan monks looking for one of their reborn sages. I also want to know where the Christians got their concept of hell, etc.}

 

[Desert Snake]

But of course, I just explained why.

Eh, that's debatable. Anyways I wasn't disagreeing with you, just adding that fact.

 

[Reverend Richard]

I am curious how the writers go from the OT (Tanakh) account of Satan (Ha-SaTan) as nothing more than "the accuser/adversary," and following God's orders, to the NT account of Satan being public enemy #1.

I grew up as a Southern Baptist, but now identify myself as a non-denominational Christian, although I tend to agree with Judaism on its position toward Satan, based off the OT. Throughout the NT, I am finding multiple verses where Satan is directly or indirectly referenced, but then I wonder just how many of those verses are actually referring to Satan as Christians view him.

Southern Baptist? Me too...

I am all too familiar with the NT verses and theories behind the Christian view, but what made the writers pick Satan out of the crowd, and place the blame of evil on him? Where is it written that Satan becomes the devil?

It is my understanding that literary works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost are to blame for a lot of the mythology of Satan, that Christians accept as fact.

Also, please don't use Isaiah 14:12 as part of your argument. That entire chapter is clearing talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II).

If you choose to respond, please cite your sources. Thanks!

When I was a Baptist, I did believe in a literal Satan - evil personified in a physical being. However, as my beliefs have changed and morphed, I now view Satan in a metaphorical sense. That is, not an actual evil entity, but a way to describe our more base passions, and unrestrained instincts, almost our ego, if you will.

Devils and similar beings appear in a number of other religious and philosophical traditions, such as Mara, the devil who tempted the Buddha during his first enlightenment. In fact if you read Buddhist mythology, you will see that the temptations Buddha endures during his meditation bears a mild resemblance to the temptations Jesus endured in the book of Matthew.