Satan: from Judaism to Christianity

[Desert Snake]

Nonsense.

Right, that's why Midrash is written by Rabbis no less, and has been used traditionally to explain all manner of Jewish text/traditions/theology.

 

[Ingledsva]

I do wonder how they reconcile the part where it says God will punish even the host of heaven if they can't disobey.

Isaiah 24:21
New International Version (©1984)
In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.

JPS

IS 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD will punish the host of the high heaven on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

I just looked at this in the Hebrew and it doesn't have to be taken as a heavenly host.

Plus even if you took it that way - the host of heaven could be the Sun and Moon spoken of two verses later.

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, …

 

[Shermana]

I just looked at this in the Hebrew and it doesn't have to be taken as a heavenly host.

Plus even if you took it that way - the host of heaven could be the Sun and Moon spoken of two verses later.

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, …

Okay, so you're saying he punishes the Sun and the Moon? Man, talk about taking your anger out on inanimate objects. What would he be punishing them for exactly? I imagine the word "punish" would indicate that they did something wrong to deserve it. Did the sun not shine bright enough? Did the moon cause too big of a tidal wave? Do you see that this would indicate the moon and the sun would also be gathered together in this prison? You even highlighted it yourself. Did you miss that?

I don't think the sun being ashamed and the moon confounded indicates that they're actually personified necessarily, or that they were just punished. If anything, it would indicate that they're ashamed at whatever the host of heaven may have done to be punished. With that said, the "Host of heaven" often and usually does refer to the actual angelic beings. If the sun and moon are being gathered into this prison, maybe you'd have a point. But I highly, highly doubt that the sun and moon were gathered into this prison. In the book of Enoch however, we can easily see what may have been a 2nd temple era idea of such beings being trapped into prison.

I would say the context relates that "kings of the Earth" is related to the idea of the "Hosts of heaven" being of similar high position as actual intelligent beings. And also capable of being shut up in a prison. How would the sun and moon be shut up in a prison exactly?

 

[Levite]

I do wonder how they reconcile the part where it says God will punish even the host of heaven if they can't disobey.

Isaiah 24:21
New International Version (©1984)
In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.

JPS

IS 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD will punish the host of the high heaven on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

צבא המרום tzva marom (the host of heaven) is a common poetic collective euphemism in Tanach, in some Rabbinic writing, and in Merkavah/Hechalot mysticism for the visible astronomical phenomena: sun, moon, stars, planets, etc. This is why Isaiah goes on to describe, in verse 23:
וחפרה הלבנה ובושה החמה כי מלך ה' צבאות בהר ציון ובירושלם ונגד זקניו כבוד׃
"The moon shall be dishonored, the sun ashamed: for YHVH of Legions shall be king on the Mountain of Tziyon, in Jerusalem, and before His elders He shall show His glory."

 

[Shermana]

צבא המרום tzva marom (the host of heaven) is a common poetic collective euphemism in Tanach, in some Rabbinic writing, and in Merkavah/Hechalot mysticism for the visible astronomical phenomena: sun, moon, stars, planets, etc. This is why Isaiah goes on to describe, in verse 23:
וחפרה הלבנה ובושה החמה כי מלך ה' צבאות בהר ציון ובירושלם ונגד זקניו כבוד׃
"The moon shall be dishonored, the sun ashamed: for YHVH of Legions shall be king on the Mountain of Tziyon, in Jerusalem, and before His elders He shall show His glory."

See my above post, this would indicate that they had reason to be punished and would be cast into a prison along with kings. How do you throw astronomical bodies in a prison? Is that what's happening with shooting stars? They're being sent to Star-prison?

(PS Yes shooting stars are meteoroids)

 

[Levite]

See my above post, this would indicate that they had reason to be punished and would be cast into a prison along with kings. How do you throw astronomical bodies in a prison? Is that what's happening with shooting stars? They're being sent to Star-prison?

(PS Yes shooting stars are meteoroids)

It's poetry. It's imagery, not a legal handbook. I believe that Isaiah is suggesting in the hyperbolic imagery of his poetry that just as God could punish and overwhelm the heavenly hosts (q.v.) if they displeased Him, He can and will bring low the mighty of earth, including kings and princes of Israel, of Assyria, and other nations of that area, when they displease Him.

 

[Shermana]

It's poetry. It's imagery, not a legal handbook. I believe that Isaiah is suggesting in the hyperbolic imagery of his poetry that just as God could punish and overwhelm the heavenly hosts (q.v.) if they displeased Him, He can and will bring low the mighty of earth, including kings and princes of Israel, of Assyria, and other nations of that area, when they displease Him.

I disagree. I think it's explicitly saying that certain elements of the Host of Heaven will be brought down with the Kings in question, it's not poetry anymore so than the events and punishments proscribed in the rest of Isaiah. I think it's saying they WILL be thrown into a spiritual prison, as a matter of fact. Are only the Kings being thrown in but the Host of Heaven is only poetically being described as such? I wouldn't think so. I think the language is suggesting that all of them are going to be thrown in that prison. Obviously, the idea of punishment involves them doing something wrong to justify such. So it CAN be read as poetry, since it's up to anyone's interpretation. And we know that "host of Heaven" can in fact refer to Angelic beings, so there's no reason to believe that it can't refer to them in question here. So I can say it's POSSIBLE to be some kind of poetry, but I'd say the use of the word "Punish" clearly indicates that this is not the case at all. Is the word "Punish" used elsewhere to describe action taken on inanimate beings that didn't do any crime worthy of chastisement? Do we see any other such examples of poetry particularly like this or is this a one time case? It doesn't really say "He could punish them if he wanted along with the Kings" nor do would I imagine its indicating such. It's saying "He WILL", not "He can if he wants along with the Kings".

We see the use of Paqad in Exodus 32:34 used as "Punish", and the use of such clearly indicates that the "visitation" is of the "Meted out/measured consequence" meaning, so it is in fact referring to punishment as a sort of "reasoned chastisement". I don't think the poetry would include anything for "measured chastisement" for inanimate bodies who did nothing to deserve it. Why would it use such language here? Even if it was poetic, the idea seems a bit out of league.

I'd think the idea of rebellious angels probably wasn't just made up on the spot at the time of Enoch's writing as if the idea had not circulated in Jewish thought beforehand.



Are there any Rabbinical writings on this verse that could be of pertinence?

Edit: It appears that Leviathan will be "visited/punished" as well in 27:1. But that still doesn't take away from the idea that the Kings are being punished as a meted out chastisement of which the "Host of heaven" would be receiving as well in context of the same verse.

 

[Levite]

I disagree. I think it's explicitly saying that certain elements of the Host of Heaven will be brought down with the Kings in question, it's not poetry anymore so than the events and punishments proscribed in the rest of Isaiah. I think it's saying they WILL be thrown into a spiritual prison, as a matter of fact. Are only the Kings being thrown in but the Host of Heaven is only poetically being described as such? I wouldn't think so. I think the language is suggesting that all of them are going to be thrown in that prison. Obviously, the idea of punishment involves them doing something wrong to justify such. So it CAN be read as poetry, since it's up to anyone's interpretation. And we know that "host of Heaven" can in fact refer to Angelic beings, so there's no reason to believe that it can't refer to them in question here. So I can say it's POSSIBLE to be some kind of poetry, but I'd say the use of the word "Punish" clearly indicates that this is not the case at all. Is the word "Punish" used elsewhere to describe action taken on inanimate beings that didn't do any crime worthy of chastisement? Do we see any other such examples of poetry particularly like this or is this a one time case? It doesn't really say "He could punish them if he wanted along with the Kings" nor do would I imagine its indicating such. It's saying "He WILL", not "He can if he wants along with the Kings".

We see the use of Paqad in Exodus 32:34 used as "Punish", and the use of such clearly indicates that the "visitation" is of the "Meted out/measured consequence" meaning, so it is in fact referring to punishment as a sort of "reasoned chastisement". I don't think the poetry would include anything for "measured chastisement" for inanimate bodies who did nothing to deserve it. Why would it use such language here? Even if it was poetic, the idea seems a bit out of league.

I'd think the idea of rebellious angels probably wasn't just made up on the spot at the time of Enoch's writing as if the idea had not circulated in Jewish thought beforehand.

Are there any Rabbinical writings on this verse that could be of pertinence?

Edit: It appears that Leviathan will be "visited/punished" as well in 27:1. But that still doesn't take away from the idea that the Kings are being punished as a meted out chastisement of which the "Host of heaven" would be receiving as well in context of the same verse.

Use of the phrase tzva marom to refer to angels is a far, far later development. It just begins to be used in that sense in late Amoraic writing: earlier Rabbinic writing consistently uses it on the sense of "the collection of all astronomical phenomena," which is how it is always used in Tanach. Attempts to drash those instances as references to the hosts of angels are also much later, in late Rabbinic and post-Talmudic Midrash.

References like these really are poetic images, and yes, such imagery is quite common, especially in the prophets. Even when the Rabbis and midrashists drash something like "tzva marom" as angels, they are clear that reading this as anything but "the collection of all astronomical phenomena" is midrash, it is not the pshat meaning of the text.

 

[Ingledsva]

I just looked at this in the Hebrew and it doesn't have to be taken as a heavenly host.

Plus even if you took it that way - the host of heaven could be the Sun and Moon spoken of two verses later.

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, …

Okay, so you're saying he punishes the Sun and the Moon? Man, talk about taking your anger out on inanimate objects. What would he be punishing them for exactly? I imagine the word "punish" would indicate that they did something wrong to deserve it. Did the sun not shine bright enough? Did the moon cause too big of a tidal wave? Do you see that this would indicate the moon and the sun would also be gathered together in this prison? You even highlighted it yourself. Did you miss that?

I don't think the sun being ashamed and the moon confounded indicates that they're actually personified necessarily, or that they were just punished. If anything, it would indicate that they're ashamed at whatever the host of heaven may have done to be punished. With that said, the "Host of heaven" often and usually does refer to the actual angelic beings. If the sun and moon are being gathered into this prison, maybe you'd have a point. But I highly, highly doubt that the sun and moon were gathered into this prison. In the book of Enoch however, we can easily see what may have been a 2nd temple era idea of such beings being trapped into prison.

I would say the context relates that "kings of the Earth" is related to the idea of the "Hosts of heaven" being of similar high position as actual intelligent beings. And also capable of being shut up in a prison. How would the sun and moon be shut up in a prison exactly?

You know as well as I do that they sometimes call the sun, moon, and stars, the host of heaven.

Plus, did you miss 20? It says the earth will reel like a drunk.

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Who knows why they speak about heavenly bodies like that.

And you seem to have missed my first sentence, and the first three words of the next.

I actually translate it as something more like this -

Isaiah 24:21 And shall come to pass a day in which YHVH shall judge over the people/gathered host, the high/haughty in position, and the kings of the earth accordingly.

*

 

[Falvlun]

He wasn't just there to accuse Balaam, but to mete out some justice too.

Not in my opinion.

Then why was HaSatan going to kill Balaam?

 

[gnostic]

See my above post, this would indicate that they had reason to be punished and would be cast into a prison along with kings. How do you throw astronomical bodies in a prison? Is that what's happening with shooting stars? They're being sent to Star-prison?

I am quite sure you have, but I'm going to say it anyway, if the question may sounds like rhetoric:

Have you read Job 38 to 40?

God is rebuking Job with all these questions that he could do that Job couldn't do, many of which is utter nonsense if you read literally.

With our current knowledge in science, including Earth science, ocean science, meteorology and astronomy, many of what God said to Job could not happen.

You have to read as poetry, not literally as they were some sort of scientific thoughts.

[6] On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— [7] while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Can stars sing?

[8] “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,

Do the sea have doors?

And he's my personal favourite:

[12] “Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, [13] that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

What in the bl@#dy hell do the wicked have to do with dawn or morning? And can you really shake them out? And does the Earth really have edges? It probably does of you think the earth is flat.

Do yourself a favor: Try not to turn yourself into a human pretzel by untwisting whatever these prophets or your God trying to say.

 

[Shermana]

I am quite sure you have, but I'm going to say it anyway, if the question may sounds like rhetoric:

Have you read Job 38 to 40?

God is rebuking Job with all these questions that he could do that Job couldn't do, many of which is utter nonsense if you read literally.

With our current knowledge in science, including Earth science, ocean science, meteorology and astronomy, many of what God said to Job could not happen.

You have to read as poetry, not literally as they were some sort of scientific thoughts.



Can stars sing?



Do the sea have doors?

And he's my personal favourite:


What in the bl@#dy hell do the wicked have to do with dawn or morning? And can you really shake them out? And does the Earth really have edges? It probably does of you think the earth is flat.

Do yourself a favor: Try not to turn yourself into a human pretzel by untwisting whatever these prophets or your God trying to say.

BBC News - Structure of stars revealed by 'music' they emit

The sounds emitted by stars light years away from Earth have been captured by British astronomers using Nasa's Kepler space telescope.
Writing in the journal Science, the team says the "music" created by the stars gives a much more accurate picture of their size and structure than was available previously.

Now as for the "doors" (gates) of the Sea, that could simply be referring to the regulated circulation of the Ocean waters, as well as the Atmospheric Pressure that keeps them in regularity. Not so much poetry but a direct way to describe natural processes. It could be referring to the watershed, natural flow of Water to seek the center of the Earth. For the most part, water flow is very regular.

The Water Cycle: Streamflow, from USGS Water-Science School

One word can explain why any river exists on Earth—gravity. You've heard that "water seeks its own level," but really water is seeking the center of the Earth, just like everything else. In practical terms, water generally seeks to flow to the oceans, which are at sea level. So, no matter where on Earth water is, it tries to flow downhill. With the Earth being a very unlevel place, water ends up occupying the valleys and depressions in the landscape as rivers and lakes.

Strong's Hebrew: 1817. ??????? (deleth) -- a door



And Interestingly, a subject I should make a whole thread about, the author of Job knew about the Springs of the Sea long before Science discovered them.

Mapping Hot Springs on the Deep Ocean Floor

Not exactly poetic there. Does it switch from poetic to non-poetic just like that?

Some commentary on what exactly the meaning of 12-13 is, it's about how the Light of Dawn shines light on the deeds of the wicked who will be Shaken off the LAND (not planet Earth). Maybe there's some slight poetry going on there, but in application to cultural belief of natural phenomenon.

http://biblecommenter.com/job/38-13.htm

So there's no pretzel untwisting necessary. Just basic science and an examination of early Theology.

However, your point still does not address the issue that the "Heavenly Host" can be in fact referenced to Angelic beings and doesn't necessarily mean astronomical bodies, which it can mean at times but not always. The Angels are in fact often referred to as the "host". To say notion that the Host of Heaven can NOT refer to Angelic beings does not work, no matter how much reference to "poetry" is invoked. The concept exists. Interestingly, we see in some literature that each soul has "Their star".



Angels and Angelology

Micaiah describes a vision in which the Lord is seated on His throne, with the host of heaven standing by on His right and left (I Kings 22:19; II Chron. 18:18). But frequently the phrase "host of heaven" means the heavenly bodies (Deut. 4:19; Jer. 8:2, etc.). Similarly, Isaiah (ch. 6) sees the Deity enthroned while the seraphim proclaim His holiness and majesty. One of the seraphim purifies Isaiah by a symbolic act, so that, unlike Micaiah, he becomes not a witness to but a participant in the ensuing deliberation of the council (cf. Zech. 3:7b), and when the Lord, as in Micaiah's vision, calls (like El in the council of the gods in the Ugaritic Epic of Keret) for a volunteer, Isaiah responds. In the ancient cosmic hymn Psalms 89:1–3, 6–19, the goodness of God is praised by the assembly of the holy beings because, the psalmist emphasizes, He is incomparably greater than they and they stand in awe of Him (Ps. 89:6–9). This last is similarly stressed in two other early compositions (see Ex. 15:11 and Ps. 29).

Now in this example one could argue that it's referring to the planets but that's debatable, the stars are referred to in addition to the host. What other host than the sun and the moon would be the "Some of"?

English Standard Version (©2001)
It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

Heavenly host - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And with that said, why would the early Jewish Christian writings refer to the Angels as the "Heavenly host" if this idea was not circulated at the time in Jewish thought? Merely dismissing it as "Not Jewish writings" doesn't explain this. The idea had to originate from Jewish culture earlier.

 

[Ingledsva]

צבא המרום tzva marom (the host of heaven) is a common poetic collective euphemism in Tanach, in some Rabbinic writing, and in Merkavah/Hechalot mysticism for the visible astronomical phenomena: sun, moon, stars, planets, etc. This is why Isaiah goes on to describe, in verse 23:
וחפרה הלבנה ובושה החמה כי מלך ה' צבאות בהר ציון ובירושלם ונגד זקניו כבוד׃
"The moon shall be dishonored, the sun ashamed: for YHVH of Legions shall be king on the Mountain of Tziyon, in Jerusalem, and before His elders He shall show His glory."

Whaaat! I already said that above. LOL! Great Minds think alike.

 

[Ingledsva]

I disagree. I think it's explicitly saying that certain elements of the Host of Heaven will be brought down with the Kings in question, it's not poetry anymore so than the events and punishments proscribed in the rest of Isaiah. I think it's saying they WILL be thrown into a spiritual prison, as a matter of fact. Are only the Kings being thrown in but the Host of Heaven is only poetically being described as such? I wouldn't think so. I think the language is suggesting that all of them are going to be thrown in that prison. Obviously, the idea of punishment involves them doing something wrong to justify such. So it CAN be read as poetry, since it's up to anyone's interpretation. And we know that "host of Heaven" can in fact refer to Angelic beings, so there's no reason to believe that it can't refer to them in question here. So I can say it's POSSIBLE to be some kind of poetry, but I'd say the use of the word "Punish" clearly indicates that this is not the case at all. Is the word "Punish" used elsewhere to describe action taken on inanimate beings that didn't do any crime worthy of chastisement? Do we see any other such examples of poetry particularly like this or is this a one time case? It doesn't really say "He could punish them if he wanted along with the Kings" nor do would I imagine its indicating such. It's saying "He WILL", not "He can if he wants along with the Kings".

We see the use of Paqad in Exodus 32:34 used as "Punish", and the use of such clearly indicates that the "visitation" is of the "Meted out/measured consequence" meaning, so it is in fact referring to punishment as a sort of "reasoned chastisement". I don't think the poetry would include anything for "measured chastisement" for inanimate bodies who did nothing to deserve it. Why would it use such language here? Even if it was poetic, the idea seems a bit out of league.

I'd think the idea of rebellious angels probably wasn't just made up on the spot at the time of Enoch's writing as if the idea had not circulated in Jewish thought beforehand.



Are there any Rabbinical writings on this verse that could be of pertinence?

Edit: It appears that Leviathan will be "visited/punished" as well in 27:1. But that still doesn't take away from the idea that the Kings are being punished as a meted out chastisement of which the "Host of heaven" would be receiving as well in context of the same verse.

My reply to you from above.

You know as well as I do that they sometimes call the sun, moon, and stars, the host of heaven.

Plus, did you miss 20? It says the earth will reel like a drunk, - and says that is a transgression.

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Who knows why they speak about heavenly bodies like that.

And you seem to have missed my first sentence, and the first three words of the next.

I actually translate it as something more like this -

Isaiah 24:21 And shall come to pass a day in which YHVH shall judge over the people/gathered host, the high/haughty in position, and the kings of the earth accordingly.

 

[Shermana]

My reply to you from above.

You know as well as I do that they sometimes call the sun, moon, and stars, the host of heaven.

Plus, did you miss 20? It says the earth will reel like a drunk, - and says that is a transgression.

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Who knows why they speak about heavenly bodies like that.

And you seem to have missed my first sentence, and the first three words of the next.

I actually translate it as something more like this -

Isaiah 24:21 And shall come to pass a day in which YHVH shall judge over the people/gathered host, the high/haughty in position, and the kings of the earth accordingly.

The word "Earth" does not mean Planet Earth, it means "The land" as in the region. Just sayin'. And it's not talking about the Drunkenness being the transgression, it's talking about all the transgressions that are upon it. Like how the Earth will spit out the Israelites because of the Transgressions upon it. It could be talking about a series of great earthquakes even and how the kingdoms upon it will fall and not rise again.

And you seem to have missed my first sentence, and the first three words of the next.

How so?

 

[Desert Snake]

Satan is mentioned 15 times in the Old Testament. The majority are in Job and Zec., In case you want to look them up. Job is being tested, and in ZEC. Satan has tested the High Priest, found him evil, and brought him before the Lord.

And in none of these is he trying to be greater then God. That was not his purpose in Torah.

Christianity changed him, just as they did Jesus, and the Hebrews found the changes to be Evil!!!!

Satan starts to change with the New Testament. Satan is mentioned 34 times in the NT.

No, not necessarily, references to Satan in the NT could be from Judaic belief, but not mentioned in detail in the OT, that is why I brought up Midrash, just because much of it was written later does not make it later belief, merely written down/discussed later, like many topics in the OT/Torah, other terms for instance, with specific connotations to them, are not explained in the Torah/Tanakh, a straight reading of the Bible won't give you the details of important terms/concepts.

 

[Desert Snake]

In pre-exile Judaism, evil spirits supposedly exist but angels, including Satan, are not among them.

Hogwash. You must not even be aware of how to interpret the terms in the OT.
This is straight up false.

 

[Ingledsva]

No, not necessarily, references to Satan in the NT could be from Judaic belief, but not mentioned in detail in the OT, that is why I brought up Midrash, just because much of it was written later does not make it later belief, merely written down/discussed later, like many topics in the OT/Torah, other terms for instance, with specific connotations to them, are not explained in the Torah/Tanakh, a straight reading of the Bible won't give you the details of important terms/concepts.

A long -long time later. And again, after contact with other religions.

I mean we are talking after they were packed off to other lands, started worshipping other Gods, etc.

It is the influence of other religions.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is the influence of other religions.

in Christianity , it is a Jew(Jesus) and Jewish Apostles, most likely different beliefs were from their Essene/Nazarene beliefs, not "foreign", and certainly not Greek, except in possibly phisosophical sense, even this is iffy, the Greeks took their philosophy seriously, and were generally following a beliefs systems completely unlike Christianity, . Judaism was also influenced by Greek thought, and don't forget that Rabbinical Judaism also differed from pre-Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am curious how the writers go from the OT (Tanakh) account of Satan (Ha-SaTan) as nothing more than "the accuser/adversary," and following God's orders, to the NT account of Satan being public enemy #1.

I grew up as a Southern Baptist, but now identify myself as a non-denominational Christian, although I tend to agree with Judaism on its position toward Satan, based off the OT. Throughout the NT, I am finding multiple verses where Satan is directly or indirectly referenced, but then I wonder just how many of those verses are actually referring to Satan as Christians view him.

I am all too familiar with the NT verses and theories behind the Christian view, but what made the writers pick Satan out of the crowd, and place the blame of evil on him? Where is it written that Satan becomes the devil?

It is my understanding that literary works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost are to blame for a lot of the mythology of Satan, that Christians accept as fact.

Also, please don't use Isaiah 14:12 as part of your argument. That entire chapter is clearing talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II).

If you choose to respond, please cite your sources. Thanks!

I've got no answers for you, just more questions. I quoted your post because I thought it was worth putting back into the mix. I was shocked when I learned that "the devil" was not from Judaism. Christianity clearly needs their Satan to make sense. Without him, Jesus, salvation, Revelation, the whole New Testament is a lie. It sounds like the dualistic concepts were present at the time, but they were never accepted into mainstream Judaism? Wow, this is a monumental mystery how the devil got to be so important in the Jesus story?

To bring up Isaiah 14:12, but in the negative way, I think is important. It shows how early Christians had to force Satan/the devil into the Hebrew Bible. They can't say they got it from non-canonical books or from pagan religions. They need it to be present in the Hebrew Bible. It's strange how that verse is used to come up with the name Lucifer. One place, one verse and an evil star is born. Is it all superstition? I hope so. But then, without Satan who is Jesus?