Satanist murders

[jasonwill2]

I was not aware my disctinction was subtle.

I thought your religion and the religion of those murderers had nothing to do with each other besides relating to a being they call Satan.

Now if you are to tell me I was wrong and the are very alike, and the differences are so "subtle" then who am I to debate

Saying it was "different kinds of Satanists" makes no difference to me because you still try to argue that they were actually Satanists, that is my point. Your trying to argue that they are Satanists without even knowing what the word means.

 

[Orias]

I argued that they were Satanists and I was ignored.

 

[Me Myself]

I argued that they were Satanists and I was ignored.

I didn`t ignored you, I remembered you as he who agreed with me

I pretty much agree on the points you brought. Then you raised others whcih I do not have the knowledge to discuss (about the similarities and the posiblity of them having a very similar relgion than yours and being "exploring", "wanting to get knowledge", etc )

 

[Me Myself]

Saying it was "different kinds of Satanists" makes no difference to me because you still try to argue that they were actually Satanists, that is my point. Your trying to argue that they are Satanists without even knowing what the word means.

I not knowing? The word means different things. I don`t know ALL the meanings, but I do know that AT LEAST ONE of it`s meanings is "those who worship Satan"

That is one of it`s meanings. The Oxford dictionary says so, and the Oxford dictionary is the authority on english language. Given that we are talking abot english language, you may have new meanings for the word (and you do), but those meanings won`t magically erase or replace the one of the Oxford, they will just be NEW posible meanings.

So yes, according to english languabge, they are Satanists. They are not your brand of Satanism, but they are definetely Satanists.

 

[jasonwill2]

I argued that they were Satanists and I was ignored.

While I see your point about Satanists justifying human sacrifice, I do not think that their "version" of Satanism is anything but taking the Christian idea of Satan at face value, making it simply Christianity-of-the-other-side. All forms of Satanism I have ever seen are much, much closer to an inversion of the Christian Satan (hence Satanism).

The fact that the Russian kids took Satan at-face-value of what it means, represents, and is in Christian Theology tells me that they were still working within that theology, meaning they still had all the beliefs of Christianity, making them simply Christians that were on "the wrong side".

 

[Me Myself]

While I see your point about Satanists justifying human sacrifice, I do not think that their "version" of Satanism is anything but taking the Christian idea of Satan at face value, making it simply Christianity-of-the-other-side. All forms of Satanism I have ever seen are much, much closer to an inversion of the Christian Satan (hence Satanism).

The fact that the Russian kids took Satan at-face-value of what it means, represents, and is in Christian Theology tells me that they were still working within that theology, meaning they still had all the beliefs of Christianity, making them simply Christians that were on "the wrong side".

A christian is someone that worships christ. Unless we are given the impression that they worship Christ, they are not Christians, even if they have the beliefs that christians have. Being a christian is also a choice, not only of what to believe but who to follow.

Some more Oxford:

efinition of Christian
adjective
of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings:
the Christian Church
informal having or showing qualities associated with Christians, especially those of decency, kindness, and fairness.
noun
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Notice that you not only need to believe in Jesus Christ (as him existing) but also believe in his teachings (as being meek, giving the other cheek, love others, etc)

Also, and kind of entertaining: the oxford dictoinary definition does not say that one cannot be both a Christian and a Satanist (technically speaking you could worship both... and that would sound really interesting )

 

[Orias]

Well Satanism is in large, a group of "knowing" or "seeking to know" type people. So they may not always be aware of things going on around them, yet at the same time they might have an idea or are cued into searching or leaking information.

With that being said its likely that they were more naive about the subject, there belief in Satan(ism) is entirely irrelevant, or they were just plan mad. Its pretty much a combination of all three. Because you'd figure they'd have to know they would get caught, and they likely did some form of ritual before acting on what they did. And if they are anything like I think, they are probably sustaining some type of ethereal form on a dimension of exist (no need to get specific here).

 

[jasonwill2]

A christian is someone that worships christ. Unless we are given the impression that they worship Christ, they are not Christians, even if they have the beliefs that christians have. Being a christian is also a choice, not only of what to believe but who to follow.

Some more Oxford:

efinition of Christian
adjective
of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings:
the Christian Church
informal having or showing qualities associated with Christians, especially those of decency, kindness, and fairness.
noun
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Notice that you not only need to believe in Jesus Christ (as him existing) but also believe in his teachings (as being meek, giving the other cheek, love others, etc)

Also, and kind of entertaining: the oxford dictoinary definition does not say that one cannot be both a Christian and a Satanist (technically speaking you could worship both... and that would sound really interesting )

Read my emphasis and you will get why I say they are Christian, not as a noun, but as an adjective.

Well Satanism is in large, a group of "knowing" or "seeking to know" type people. So they may not always be aware of things going on around them, yet at the same time they might have an idea or are cued into searching or leaking information.

With that being said its likely that they were more naive about the subject, there belief in Satan(ism) is entirely irrelevant, or they were just plan mad. Its pretty much a combination of all three. Because you'd figure they'd have to know they would get caught, and they likely did some form of ritual before acting on what they did. And if they are anything like I think, they are probably sustaining some type of ethereal form on a dimension of exist (no need to get specific here).

...What?

 

[Me Myself]

Read my emphasis and you will get why I say they are Christian, not as a noun, but as an adjective.

read the whole post and understand that technically being a christian doesn`t exclude them of being Satanists

It excludes them of your specific branch of satanism, but not of all branches of satanism.

they remain Satanists, according to the Oxford dictionary (and thus. according to english language. )

 

[Orias]

Basically Jason I am talking about the whole psychodramatic spectrum.

 

[jasonwill2]

read the whole post and understand that technically being a christian doesn`t exclude them of being Satanists

It excludes them of your specific branch of satanism, but not of all branches of satanism.

they remain Satanists, according to the Oxford dictionary (and thus. according to english language. )

I got confused on that part. so your saying that they are both Christians and Satanists? Because they are Christians and nothing more to me.

They are NO BRANCH of Satanism, nor the Russian kids or the "vampire" couple. If they are, SHOW ME what school of thought or organization they are part of, and show me a source that can show that someone, somewhere, actually seriously holds that position AS A PRIMARY SOURCE, that is not written by a Christian church or organization.

 

[Orias]

Is that what Satanism is based off of, sources?

 

[Me Myself]

I got confused on that part. so your saying that they are both Christians and Satanists? Because they are Christians and nothing more to me.

They are NO BRANCH of Satanism, nor the Russian kids or the "vampire" couple. If they are, SHOW ME what school of thought or organization they are part of, and show me a source that can show that someone, somewhere, actually seriously holds that position AS A PRIMARY SOURCE, that is not written by a Christian church or organization.

They don`t need to belong to a "school of thought". They only need to "worship satan" according to the Oxford dictionary. and they do. Wheter it is the christian interpretation of Satan or your interpretation of Satan 100% irrelevant. What is relevant is that they worship a "Satan".

So that makes them Satanists, according to english language.

 

[jasonwill2]

Is that what Satanism is based off of, sources?

They don`t need to belong to a "school of thought". They only need to "worship satan" according to the Oxford dictionary. and they do. Wheter it is the christian interpretation of Satan or your interpretation of Satan 100% irrelevant. What is relevant is that they worship a "Satan".

So that makes them Satanists, according to english language.

Prove to me that either described group worshiped Satan instead of looking for an excuse to commit these crimes.

 

[Me Myself]

Prove to me that either described group worshiped Satan instead of looking for an excuse to commit these crimes.

Prove to me that you worship Satan instead of looking for an excuse to look "cool" and "evil" and "freak people out" and remain a "rebel".

Mind you, I am not saying you definetely worshp Satan just because of that, but simply you cannot evidence why you worship Satan, no one can evidence why s/he worships anyone.

So we can say that there is no reason to doubt their claimed adoration to Satan.

Everyone worships who s/he worships for a ( well, typically several) reason (s). That is irrelevant. We have no reason to believe they lied about worshipping Satan.

 

[Orias]

Ok, the article you gave us said they were Satanists, they hate quotes and everything. They could use anything as an excuse to commit these crimes, thats just the thing. Why can't they be both?

 

[jasonwill2]

Prove to me that you worship Satan instead of looking for an excuse to look "cool" and "evil" and "freak people out" and remain a "rebel".

Mind you, I am not saying you definetely worshp Satan just because of that, but simply you cannot evidence why you worship Satan, no one can evidence why s/he worships anyone.

I didn't ask for why, but proof that they were serious. As for the accusations against myself, I do happen to have on footage two rituals, one (by accident and chance) a supernatural event of talking to The Mirror, and many, many writings, rants, and insights written over the last year that show I am very serious. However all of these, specifically the footage, is very personal and I have not shared most of my thoughts on the matter of Satan. But should you think I am in this for the image, I have time-stamped proof of my evolution of thought on the matter. My paper trail on my computer alone would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt that 1) I have a religion involving a positive/neutral figure called "(Ha)-Satan", and that 2) I'm serious.

Ok, the article you gave us said they were Satanists, they hate quotes and everything. They could use anything as an excuse to commit these crimes, thats just the thing. Why can't they be both?

Because then everyone will think we are all murderers.

 

[Quintessence]

Everyone would think you're all murderers? I wouldn't. Only the people looking for an excuse to be a bigot would. They'd basically be making a sweeping overgeneralization, condemning everything that falls under "satanist" (proper case or otherwise) as murderous, and that's bigotry. More than likely, these bigots are going to hold their bigoted views regardless of whether or not someone calling themselves a satanist commits murder.

But I'd like to pose a question again I raised earlier: where's your PR? Does religious Satanism have any sort of active PR? There's no way to resolve this issue in your favor without active, positive PR of your group. Maybe you guys don't have the membership and momentum to do any serious PR campaigning yet; I don't know, but that really is the answer to the problem. Most people don't even know you (religious Satanism) exist, much less what you define yourselves as.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I agree, however if your digging up dead girls and eating their hearts there is more going on then simply your religion;

Under some circumstances, I would eat a dead girl's heart, considering it part of my religion. Why would this make me mentally ill?

 

[jasonwill2]

Everyone would think you're all murderers? I wouldn't. Only the people looking for an excuse to be a bigot would. They'd basically be making a sweeping overgeneralization, condemning everything that falls under "satanist" (proper case or otherwise) as murderous, and that's bigotry. More than likely, these bigots are going to hold their bigoted views regardless of whether or not someone calling themselves a satanist commits murder.

Let me put it this way with a personal example. My mother is no bigot, but she once told me "I don't think your a true Satanist unless your doing really nasty ****."

I've tried telling her that what she calls "true Satanism" doesn't really exist, but like millions of people, they are so afraid the term they won't even look at it because of their own preconceptions because of this fear. Also she's not particularly religious either.

But I'd like to pose a question again I raised earlier: where's your PR? Does religious Satanism have any sort of active PR? There's no way to resolve this issue in your favor without active, positive PR of your group. Maybe you guys don't have the membership and momentum to do any serious PR campaigning yet; I don't know, but that really is the answer to the problem. Most people don't even know you (religious Satanism) exist, much less what you define yourselves as.

Why do you keep asking this? The only public relations that is ever done is probably by the Church of Satan, which officially and dogmatically condemns every non-LaVeyan/atheistic form of Satanism. Other groups are too financially weak to do such a thing, seeing has how they are not profit driven. The "PR" I have seen is normally by word of mouth from Theistic Satanist to non-Satanist, one person at a time.

Do you even know what it is like in the world of Satanism? The infighting, disagreements, petty egos, and general hostilities between the Church of Satan, the various theistic organizations, and the far-right politically motivated groups, is staggering to the point to where anything resembling cohesion is laughable at best. To think that any one group could be a spokesperson for all of Satanism isn't very likely.

Though if any one person has ever attempted to do this with some measure of success, it would be Diane Vera who has written on the issues before as a commentator and is very active in New York City, but otherwise is absent these days in the online scene. She has also done some real life/not-online PR in the form of freely handing out information (at certain events) that attempts to neutralize false and scapegoating claims made by some leaders in the Neo-Pagan community at the expense of Satanism.

The two collection of things that she has written that come to mind first are:

Popular misconceptions about Satanism

Against Satanic Panics - Diane Vera

And specifically about what Satanism is, is this article written by Diane Vera as well:

The definition of "Satanism" according to new-religion scholars, etc.

But seriously, she is the only one I have ever seen do something like this. This is the closest thing I have seen to public relations.