Satya Sai Baba - man or God?

[Riverwolf]

Oh Pleaaaaase! How can you cut past/ignore the apologetics of Sai Baba devote Ram Das and go exclusively to the emotive response?

Ram Das claims-
"First of all, I believe that Sathya Sai Baba is an Avatar, a full incarnation of God - “the most powerful incarnation of God ever to come to the Earth” (as Anandamoyi Ma described Sai Baba). AND, from what I’ve read and heard, I’m inclined to think some of the allegations about Baba are probably true: it appears likely to me that He has occasionally had sexually intimate interactions with devotees. God has given me the grace to be able to see that these two ideas are not necessarily in contradiction, and I invite the world to explore that possibility with me here. As I lay in my room immersed in confusion, I suddenly heard Baba’s voice again:
“Know that whatever I do with my devotees is always the most efficient medicine for those souls, and a gift of immeasurable grace. My actions are always a perfect expression of Divine Love, for That is what I am.”

Translated- "I believe some of the allegations about Baba are probably true: it appears likely to me that He has occasionally had sexually intimate interactions with devotees...but that's ok because he is "an Avatar, a full incarnation of God"!!!???

No....I'm with the Web page author....that's "sick", "deluded".

If it turns out to be true, then yes it is. It would go without saying, and thus become pointless to say.

I'm sorry, but it's my knee-jerk reaction to emotive flair, which I used to be a victim of back in the day when it came to propaganda. Therefore, whenever I see it in such a thing, I will use it as a point against its credence.

If Sai Baba did indeed mentally say that to Ram Das, then that would frankly cast doubt on the abuse allegations, because there's no human in this world for whom that could possibly be medicinal, and God would know that. (Then again, there have been reports of Yogis who could communicate telepathically with people, so such communication doesn't automatically mean God.)

 

[charles brough]

Sadly two features stand out in my mind in relation to Sai Baba...

The first is his well documented use of sleight of hand/magic tricks to produce objects he claimed to have manifested from thin air.

More disturbing from my perspective are the number of allegations of child abuse either by Sai Baba himself or in his ashrams.

This seems to be typical of so many charismatic would-be "spiritual leaders." Instead of thinking up a new and more advanced ideology that is scientific enough to bring all people together and be constructive in building a better future, these opportunists only think up some new twist to the old and obsolete "spirit" based faiths, all only for the fame and fortune they too easily receive.

Let's not bow to them . . . :bow:
http://robertpriddy.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/sai-baba-child-abuse/

 

[Wombat]

If Sai Baba did indeed mentally say that to Ram Das, then that would frankly cast doubt on the abuse allegations, because there's no human in this world for whom that could possibly be medicinal, and God would know that. (Then again, there have been reports of Yogis who could communicate telepathically with people, so such communication doesn't automatically mean God.)

Let me get this straight....The evidence that Sai Baba used blatent trickery to "manifest" things (dust for the poor, Rolex for the rich) is irrefutable....caught on film more than twice. But for some this trickery leaves open the posibility that he could still be God and was just tricking/testing all humanity with his Snake Oil Salesman magic. And subsequently, when dozens of allegations of sexual abuse arise we are to consider that this tricky God used his psychic telecomunication powers to converse with a follower, Ram Das, to let him know God has been tricking/testing again but this time with abusive sexual activity?

I don't posess the "emotive flair" to cover such a scenario...nor will the board ROC permit me to manifest the appropriate language.

 

[Riverwolf]

Let me get this straight....The evidence that Sai Baba used blatent trickery to "manifest" things (dust for the poor, Rolex for the rich) is irrefutable....caught on film more than twice. But for some this trickery leaves open the posibility that he could still be God and was just tricking/testing all humanity with his Snake Oil Salesman magic.

Chances are VERY slim. I'm not saying that. I don't believe Sai Baba was any more of an avatar than any of us.

And subsequently, when dozens of allegations of sexual abuse arise we are to consider that this tricky God used his psychic telecomunication powers to converse with a follower, Ram Das, to let him know God has been tricking/testing again but this time with abusive sexual activity?

Not necessarily. Like I said, there are reports of Yogis who can manifest such powers without actually being avatars. They claim that with proper practice and training, anyone can develop these powers. Not to mention, the message Ram Das claims, and probably believes, he received is very ambiguous, and isn't automatically a confession of sexual abuses. It can also be read as him saying he doesn't do that. Both sides can come from the message.

 

[Riverwolf]

In order for him to convince me that he's really an avatar, he's going to have to come back to life sometime before the prophesied time of death, and NOT as a young child but a fully grown adult.

 

[zenzero]

Friends.
Most have missed the point when have indicated/pointed towards the three wise monkeys.
Kindly understand that each one's karma is each one's to justify his/her position in time and space in this universe and it is not dependent on other's karma.
If one stays on course to clear his own balance of karma one may need to follow the 10 commandments of Jesus or follow the three wise monkey instead of wasting time and energy of other's karma.
If it helps in one's search wish them well if not are free to remain focused towards true freedom!

Love & rgds

 

[gnomon]

I prefer Besava Premanand's approach which is to expose people for who they are. Premanand helped more people actually achieve intellectual freedom which leads to emotional and financial freedom rather than a someone who essentially said "What's that behind your ear? I'm God.".

 

[Riverwolf]

I prefer Besava Premanand's approach which is to expose people for who they are. Premanand helped more people actually achieve intellectual freedom which leads to emotional and financial freedom rather than a someone who essentially said "What's that behind your ear? I'm God.".

What freedom do you speak of?

 

[gnomon]

The freedom that comes with knowledge and education. There are many gurus in India who take advantage of people. We have the same thing here in the States. Promising miracles in exchange for money is the same no matter what religion or culture it's from. When you educate people that these supposed miracles are nothing more than tricks that anyone can do whether it's an Indian guru faking levitation, palming objects or an American pastor using a radio to claim God given knowledge of a person's ailment it's the same.

I hold no doubts that Satya Sai Baba knows he was using mere tricks. Based upon that he was essentially lying to people to convince him he was a god man. How someone who lies for money, power and prestige uses a pittance of what they receive to open unaccountable charitable organizations is considered a great man astounds me.

Seriously, how anyone respect any human being who travels among villages of poor people calling himself a god?

 

[Riverwolf]

The freedom that comes with knowledge and education. There are many gurus in India who take advantage of people. We have the same thing here in the States. Promising miracles in exchange for money is the same no matter what religion or culture it's from. When you educate people that these supposed miracles are nothing more than tricks that anyone can do whether it's an Indian guru faking levitation, palming objects or an American pastor using a radio to claim God given knowledge of a person's ailment it's the same.

I hold no doubts that Satya Sai Baba knows he was using mere tricks. Based upon that he was essentially lying to people to convince him he was a god man. How someone who lies for money, power and prestige uses a pittance of what they receive to open unaccountable charitable organizations is considered a great man astounds me.

Seriously, how anyone respect any human being who travels among villages of poor people calling himself a god?

You didn't really tell me what kind of freedom you're talking about, but then again, that could be on me for not asking you to actually describe it.

But we call him a great man, because of his charity works. He founded free schools and hospitals. To me, that basically overshadows his parlor tricks. It's not enough to call him God, though.

But then again, I don't subscribe to the mindset that evil outweighs good; that any evil basically nullifies even a lifetime of good.

 

[Wombat]

Chances are VERY slim. I'm not saying that. I don't believe Sai Baba was any more of an avatar than any of us..

I would suggest so "VERY slim" as to be unworthy of consideration or speculation.

Not necessarily. Like I said, there are reports of Yogis who can manifest such powers without actually being avatars. .

Mate....there are "reports" of all manner of things- Nessy, ghosts, WMDs and anal probing aliens.....no evidence of any as yet.

We have had over a hundred years of private and State/scientific exploration of "reports" of "such powers" as psychic phenomena/telepathy...From the Rhine experiments- Extrasensory perception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
to the extensive study (for potential military application) of three super powers Britain, America and Russia.

The results are long in....nothing to indicate outcomes above chance.

The only interesting thing to emerge was the early test results appeared more than promicing....because those conducting the tests (like most of us) did not factor in the human propensity for fraud, deception, trickery. When the researchers called in Magicians to guard against trickery/falsification the test results fell away to mere chance outcomes.

The only 'Yogi' powers I have ever seen documented, demonstrated, confirmed are purely physiological- controll of breathing- air requirement (half what science in the 70s said was required to live) and pulse ect...

They claim that with proper practice and training, anyone can develop these powers. .

Sorry....they can "claim" and "report" whatever they like.....none have demonstrated any psychic capacity nor the ability to train others to do so.

Not to mention, the message Ram Das claims, and probably believes, he received is very ambiguous, and isn't automatically a confession of sexual abuses. It can also be read as him saying he doesn't do that. Both sides can come from the message.

I can't see it.....I see absurd apologetics for a confirmed fraudster and the most bizzare theological tripple flip and back twist in human history- i.e. If Sai Baba did engage in such acts of sexual abuse that could still be because he was Divine and testing/healing his followers.

The whole propisition deserves

and a hearty- "Get off the Grass Ram Das!"

 

[Riverwolf]

I would suggest so "VERY slim" as to be unworthy of consideration or speculation.

I would almost agree. But I don't just discard things lightly. I just don't give them much thought.

Mate....there are "reports" of all manner of things- Nessy, ghosts, WMDs and anal probing aliens.....no evidence of any as yet.

We have had over a hundred years of private and State/scientific exploration of "reports" of "such powers" as psychic phenomena/telepathy...From the Rhine experiments- Extrasensory perception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
to the extensive study (for potential military application) of three super powers Britain, America and Russia.

The results are long in....nothing to indicate outcomes above chance.

The only interesting thing to emerge was the early test results appeared more than promicing....because those conducting the tests (like most of us) did not factor in the human propensity for fraud, deception, trickery. When the researchers called in Magicians to guard against trickery/falsification the test results fell away to mere chance outcomes.

The only 'Yogi' powers I have ever seen documented, demonstrated, confirmed are purely physiological- controll of breathing- air requirement (half what science in the 70s said was required to live) and pulse ect...

Sorry....they can "claim" and "report" whatever they like.....none have demonstrated any psychic capacity nor the ability to train others to do so.

Have you met any?

I can't see it

Oh, well.

 

[Wombat]

Friends.
Kindly understand that each one's karma is each one's to justify his/her position in time and space in this universe and it is not dependent on other's karma.
If one stays on course to clear his own balance of karma one may need to follow the 10 commandments of Jesus or follow the three wise monkey instead of wasting time and energy of other's karma.
If it helps in one's search wish them well if not are free to remain focused towards true freedom!
Love & rgds

Some questions in relation to this notion of 'karma' zenzero....

Is karma in play as a result of law established by a supernatural being? (God?)...or a natural law the likes of gravity (devoid of overseeing intelligence)?

In the following scenarios what are the probable karmic ramifications and outcomes.

If as an individual I become aware of suspicion/allegations of child abuse and take no action to convey same to the apropriate authorities...am I "seeing no evil" or at risk of karmic repercussions for failing a moral/ethical Duty of Care to protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Is there 'collective karma'?....On a family, local national scale...can 'we' become aware of abuse that we have the collective power to alert, rally against, mitigate or prevent....and if we fail to attempt to do so is there karmic repercussions?

In short...do we have individual and collective responsibility to confront evil acts and is there a negative karmic outcome if we fail to do so?

 

[zenzero]

Friend wombat,

The karma is something that one must understand and realize only then does it have a meaning or else the mind which sees only in dualities will carry on its activities eternally as is the same with karma too.
Coming to your question of hanging someone of a crime after his death.
Humans as society have made rules and the victim as to state it in a court of law in front of the criminal to punish him or whatever the appropriate law is.
If society has failed collectively in doing so the karma of others will only pile up by discussing ill as discussing ill means the thoughts generated in the in the mind too are ill which manifests at the appropriate time as ill.
Love & rgds

 

[Wombat]

Have you met any?

Yogi’s?....Why would meeting them be necessary, relevant, pertinent?
Any display of supposed psychic powers would be no different to that of a Magician...I’m not ‘hip to the tricks’...I would not be able to spot the deception...but there are many professionals who are aware of how the tricks/scams are done- from bending spoons to reading contents of sealed envelopes...all the claimed ‘powers’ of supposed psychics/yogis have been duplicated by professional Magician debunkers and no psychic event has ever been verified.

 

[Wombat]

Friend wombat,

The karma is something that one must understand and realize....

With respect zenzero...your response is vague and evasive and tells me nothing about karma, how it came into being nor how it operates.

You propose that "karma is something that one must understand and realize" and yet provide nothing upon which any "understanding" can be based.

"... only then does it have a meaning or else the mind which sees only in dualities will carry on its activities eternally as is the same with karma too."

Zenzero...I work in the Welfare Sector so I'm well used to 'psychobabble'...and what you provide above is as good an example as I have ever come across.

You are telling me that karma only has "meaning" when it is "understood" and "realised" and yet offer nothing as to how, why, in what way karma can be "understood" or "realised".

Is karma a natural law in operation or the result of a supernatural agency?


"Coming to your question of hanging someone of a crime after his death."

Never asked such a question, never proposed such an action.

Is there a karmic outcome for offering Straw Man?


"Humans as society have made rules and the victim as to state it in a court of law in front of the criminal to punish him or whatever the appropriate law is."

Zenzero...with respect, once again, you're response does not speak to the question I asked-
If as an individual I become aware of suspicion/allegations of child abuse and take no action to convey same to the apropriate authorities...am I "seeing no evil" or at risk of karmic repercussions for failing a moral/ethical Duty of Care to protect those who cannot protect themselves?
(I ask again because if I/others do not take action then the "victim" does not get the opportunity to "state it in a court of law").

If society has failed collectively in doing so the karma of others will only pile up by discussing ill as discussing ill means the thoughts generated in the in the mind too are ill which manifests at the appropriate time as ill.
Love & rgds

The karma will "pile up" on who? On those who have "failed collectively"? Or on those who are "discussing ill"?

"discussing ill means the thoughts generated in the in the mind too are ill which manifests at the appropriate time as ill."?

So discussing the ill of child abuse means "means the thoughts generated in the in the mind too are ill"??....

One can get karmicaly sick from discussing an 'ill' such as child abuse?

 

[zenzero]

Friend wombat,

Yes, when one sees something which as members of the society we try and protect like child getting abused we must report and the authorities must punish.
End of chapter.
It is fine in every sense.
What am trying to get across is that the sinner is enacting a desire and that his karma will take care of it even after getting punished by society or even if he could not be punished but that is something which one should not keep carrying in one's mind as that keeping of such thoughts gets formed into seeds maybe next child abuser you see, you may tend to kill him. Now the killer's karma gets into action.
It is not necessary to commit rape even thoughts of rape drives the karma wheel.

Love & rgds

 

[Wombat]

Friend wombat,
Yes, when one sees something which as members of the society we try and protect like child getting abused we must report and the authorities must punish.
End of chapter.
It is fine in every sense.

Perhaps "End of chapter/fine in every sense" for you zenzero...but for me a number of issues remain open and unresolved.

First up the notion "and the authorities must punish"...No amount of "punishing" is known to be effective...however treatment/therapy/counselling can be most effective. Perhaps there is a collective karmic outcome to the 'seed/notion' "punish"?

Secondly...and hopefully third time lucky...I still have no insight into your understanding of how karma operates. I do however have this overview from Wiki-

Buddhism and many followers of Hinduism traditions consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma
"Any action is understood as creating "seeds" in the mind that will sprout into the appropriate result (Pāli vipaka) when met with the right conditions. Most types of karmas, with good or bad results, will keep one within the wheel of samsāra, while others will liberate one to nirvāna.
Buddhism links karma directly to the motives behind an action. Motivation usually makes the difference between "good" and "bad" actions; but included in the motivation is also the aspect of ignorance such that a well-intended action from an ignorant mind can subsequently be interpreted as a "bad" action in the sense that it creates unpleasant results for the "actor".

Is this an outline of karma with which you concur?

What am trying to get across is that the sinner is enacting a desire and that his karma will take care of it even after getting punished by society..."

Yes...I understand that...My question was and remains- is "his karma" the operation of a natural law (like gravity) or the operation of a supernatural agency?

"... or even if he could not be punished but that is something which one should not keep carrying in one's mind as that keeping of such thoughts gets formed into seeds maybe next child abuser you see, you may tend to kill him. Now the killer's karma gets into action."

Wether the thought "is something which one should not keep carrying in one's mind" would depend, imo, on the nature of the thought itself....If the thought in this regard is highly charged/emotional- "I hate child abusers...I will punish them" then that seed thought could indeed lead to violence.

But if the thought is rational/detatched and seeking preventative solutions- "I love all...I despise the behaviour of child abusers...I will do what I can to prevent, mittigate and heal both victim and perp"....I cannot see that as a thought/seed leading to negative karma/outcome.

It is not necessary to commit rape even thoughts of rape drives the karma wheel."

Ah huh....And this is a natural law outcome? I ask (repeatedly) because when gravity is in play- things fall....there is no moral/ethical imperatives or considerations of gravity between rapist and a celebate saint...they both fall the same.


But the karma of "even thoughts of rape" require moral/ethical imperatives or considerations...i.e. some intelligance must be making such determinations on moral/ethical principles.........Who is doing so? The thinker of the thoughts or another agency?

 

[K.Venugopal]

The following article on charges against Satya Sai Baba may be read:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/166239/Move-to-malign-Sai-Baba-fails.html

 

[Riverwolf]

Yogi’s?....Why would meeting them be necessary, relevant, pertinent?
Any display of supposed psychic powers would be no different to that of a Magician...I’m not ‘hip to the tricks’...I would not be able to spot the deception...but there are many professionals who are aware of how the tricks/scams are done- from bending spoons to reading contents of sealed envelopes...all the claimed ‘powers’ of supposed psychics/yogis have been duplicated by professional Magician debunkers and no psychic event has ever been verified.

Lack of verification is not enough for me to dismiss them. I'll see for myself. I already have a few tests in mind.

Besides, I'm not talking about the kinds of powers that can be replicated by magicians. Not all of them can be.