outhouse
Atheistically
Yes.
As a religion that has the highest amount of illiteracy, their lack of education needs to be addressed.
If we cannot see a problem, we cannot fix it.
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Saudi cleric says earth doesn't rotate
- Thread starter Augustus
- Start date
Yes.
As a religion that has the highest amount of illiteracy, their lack of education needs to be addressed.
If we cannot see a problem, we cannot fix it.
gnostic
The Lost One
Sorry, but the 2nd verse - 21:33 seemed to indicate a geocentric planetary motion, where the Sun orbits around the Earth, instead of the other way around (heliocentric model).
Around the time of Muhammad, civilisations and cultures around the world only believe in the faulty geocentric planetary motion model, in which the sun and planets orbited the Earth. Only a few ancient astronomers had claim that Sun was centre of the system, heliocentric planetary system, in which all planets orbited around the sun.
The verse - Qur'an 21:33 seemed to be supporting the former model - geocentric planetary system - because it say that both Sun and Moon "swim along an orbit", which implied they both orbited around the Earth. This "orbiting" around the Earth is implied because it mention Allah creating "night" and "day". The verse connect the "night and day" and with the sun moving in an orbit.
But in scientific reality, it is the Earth that actually rotating on its axis, and only the side of the Earth that faces the Sun get sunlight from the Sun. And it is the Earth that follow an elliptical orbit around the Sun, hence HELIOCENTRIC system model.
Verse 21:33 say nothing about the Earth rotating; it only just the sun move in an orbit. And it is very clear that verse doesn't say Earth orbiting around the Sun.
I would suggest you read what the Qur'an is actually saying, and not make things up that it doesn't say, Union.
Union
Well-Known Member
Your suggestion of not making things is actually applies to you as verse 21.33 never mentioned the earth to be the center of sun's rotation . Even the word 'the earth' is not in this whole verse . It simply suggests :
01. The sun is rotating in an orbit .
02. The moon is rotating in an orbit .
03. All ( which obviously includes the earth) are moving in an orbit .
The surprise is , 1400 years back no body knows that the Sun has an orbit , i.e., Galactocentric orbit , just in the middle of Milky way Galaxy .
If the verse would have said , ' the sun rotates around the earth ' , then you would have won ....
Actually I enjoyed this very short video, even though he is wrong, he is very clever at the same....
Now he may have disproven his own logic, when he says from a very simplistic viewpoint:
"If we leave Sharjah airport on an international flight to China... the Earth is rotating, right?" he asked sarcastically. "So, if the plane stops still on air, wouldn't China be coming towards it? True or not?"
If we apply the same simplicity to this perspective, even though it is much more complicated then he states, actually he disproves his own ideas.
Because, assume we COULD stop a plane (or flying machine) high enough in the sky, where it is just stopped in it's place without motion in just the right place, in fact using the same simple logic, indeed China would be rotating with the earth and at some point end up directly under the flying machine.
This would be a great energy saver. Simply launch the vehicle straight up from Cleveland, where it stops dead in the upper sphere and does not move at all nor pulled by and gravitational forces or belts, and then "just wait until China catches up", and rotates directly under, then just come straight down and land in Shanghai.
But the problem is, the air pollution in Shanghai ... so you have to be careful ...
Now another way of looking at his agenda is, it might be a way to attract attention, sort of like having a giant gorilla made of plaster holding a Ford F150 truck in his hands and a face like he is going to throw it at the cars speeding down Hwy 5.
On the surface of it, such an advertising shocker would seem counter to the idea of selling new trucks. After all, it would seem to imply destruction of F150s instead of driving a new one off the car dealership lot.
Yet think about it....
It would grab your attention. It would cause many to stop by and look at trucks. I know. That sounds crazy. But it would. Double the number of customers would come to the dealership. It's like those giant dinosaur statues 30 feet tall I used to see in the 60s by the gas station, purposely to attract customers to the petrol station.
It works. And the kids demand to go over and look. Next thing you know, you buy a truck. Illogical but natural.
So this guy might be smarter than you think. He gets your attention, and the next thing you know you are buying a Quran.
Now he may have disproven his own logic, when he says from a very simplistic viewpoint:
"If we leave Sharjah airport on an international flight to China... the Earth is rotating, right?" he asked sarcastically. "So, if the plane stops still on air, wouldn't China be coming towards it? True or not?"
If we apply the same simplicity to this perspective, even though it is much more complicated then he states, actually he disproves his own ideas.
Because, assume we COULD stop a plane (or flying machine) high enough in the sky, where it is just stopped in it's place without motion in just the right place, in fact using the same simple logic, indeed China would be rotating with the earth and at some point end up directly under the flying machine.
This would be a great energy saver. Simply launch the vehicle straight up from Cleveland, where it stops dead in the upper sphere and does not move at all nor pulled by and gravitational forces or belts, and then "just wait until China catches up", and rotates directly under, then just come straight down and land in Shanghai.
But the problem is, the air pollution in Shanghai ... so you have to be careful ...
Now another way of looking at his agenda is, it might be a way to attract attention, sort of like having a giant gorilla made of plaster holding a Ford F150 truck in his hands and a face like he is going to throw it at the cars speeding down Hwy 5.
On the surface of it, such an advertising shocker would seem counter to the idea of selling new trucks. After all, it would seem to imply destruction of F150s instead of driving a new one off the car dealership lot.
Yet think about it....
It would grab your attention. It would cause many to stop by and look at trucks. I know. That sounds crazy. But it would. Double the number of customers would come to the dealership. It's like those giant dinosaur statues 30 feet tall I used to see in the 60s by the gas station, purposely to attract customers to the petrol station.
It works. And the kids demand to go over and look. Next thing you know, you buy a truck. Illogical but natural.
So this guy might be smarter than you think. He gets your attention, and the next thing you know you are buying a Quran.
gnostic
The Lost One
*sigh*
There are differences between rotation and orbit, and you are confusing two different definitions.
Rotation is a movement of object, that follow no path. Another word for rotation is spinning.
Orbit is following a path either a circular or elliptical path, which a object.
Do you understand what I am saying?
I will give you two different examples for each definition, and hopefully you will understand these differences? Ok?
Take a potter's wheel for example. This will only rotate either clockwise or anti-clockwise, but it is not travelling anyway. It remain stationary, but it is rotating or spinning. This is rotation or rotating.
If I tie a string to an object, and then with my hand spinning the object around me. The object itself is not rotating/spinning, but it is going a specific path (hence an orbit). This is action is like David's weapon that he used against Goliath, the shepherd sling. The sling itself is moving, but the stone itself seated in the sling's pouch don't move at all - no rotating, until the stone is released. Only when the stone is released does the stone rotate, but it doesn't rotate while it is in the pouch.
Perhaps, the sling wasn't a good example.
Ok, let just say I put garden gnome at the centre my garden, and then I watch ants circling around gnome a metre away from figurine. This circling around the gnome, is following an orbital path. The ants are not rotating, but they are orbiting around the gnome.
Here, I have given you 2 different examples, where thing can orbit without rotating, or rotating without orbiting.
But the Earth does both, rotate on its orbit, but it also followed the orbital path around the Sun. It is the rotational movement, that allowed for the light to shine on part of the Earth's surface, only when that surface is facing the Sun, that we get day. It is not the Earth's orbit around the Sun that give day and night.
You are not reading the verse properly. You are reading too much into the verse.
No where does the verse mention any other stars in the galaxy, hence no Milky Way. The only star mention is the sun itself.
The verse only mentioned night and day, and sun and moon, and nothing else.
There is no night and day in the Milky Way, because the night and day only related to the Earth. And the Sun and moon also relate to the Earth. The Sun is the star that give light to the Earth, while the moon's surface reflect sunlight to earth, so that you could see outside at night time.
Can you tell what are the sources of light, during day and night?
Do you see any where in the verses that mention other "stars", group of stars or cluster of stars or galaxy? No.
You are completely ignoring the first part of the verse (night and day), that it is related the sun and moon.
I know that the Sun also rotate on it own axis. And I know that the Sun also followed a galactic orbit of the milk way. But the verse make no mention of galaxy.
Learn to read and understand the context of verse, and not put something that the verse doesn't say.
This is what I hate about religious people, especially with some Christians and Muslims, they will always misinterpret things so they can fit their scriptures with science. Are you really that insecure with your faith that you can't treat the Qur'an as work of theology only, but also treat it as a science book?
Verse 21:33 is astronomically wrong about the Sun's orbit, because the Sun doesn't orbit around the Earth, even though that it may seem that way.
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One certainly can.
And seeing how little in the way of assurances that such idiocy will not be found in those with the power to issue fatwas and the like we have, we at least arguably should as well.
Although the "cynical" part is rather questionable, of course.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You're absolutely wrong, lets see the verse and read it carefully
[021:033] It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all swim along an orbit.
I'm sure that you know nothing about the Arabic language and hence you can't make the right judgement.
Does night and day belong to the sun or the moon, or it belongs to earth, so rationally it is about sun,moon and the earth which have the day and night.
In Arabic language if speaking about 2 things we should use a word similar to English "both" but the verse in Arabic says all and that means it speaks about the movement of the sun, the moon and earth, moreover the word swimming amazingly means that all planets are floating and moving forward at the same instant exactly similar to the actual movement of swimming, a force for floating and a force for going a head, so the object doesn't sink in or fly away and keep moving.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Apparently because planes can reach their destination, the earth must be stationaryTake that science! Pwned yet again...
Video: Watch: Saudi cleric tells students 'Earth does not rotate' - Telegraph
He isn't the only one, but if a Muslim says it then it's a big deal.
Union
Well-Known Member
***Repeat**** The verses didn't say that the sun rotates around the earth rather says sun has an orbit along which it swims/moves ....
No scientific error but your misunderstanding . As a side note , you need to know Arabic to understand Qur'an , I hope you know Arabic , not so sure though .
Shad
Veteran Member
The fact that the geocentric model was the dominate model of Muslim astronomy while the heliocentric model was not even mentioned speaks volumes regarding this verse. Post hoc rationalization. The verse never says the Earth rotates around the sun either so you own excuse can be used to refute your argument.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
The quran doesn't mention which rotates around which, so it is neither geocentric nor heliocentric according to the quran.
Augustus
…
He isn't the only one, but if a Muslim says it then it's a big deal.
I'm quite happy to ridicule everyone who says such things. But this is religion v science forum, and "answering a student question on whether the Earth is stationary or moving, Sheikh Bandar al-Khaibari replied: "stationary and does not move." He then attempted to support his argument by quoting some clerics and selected religious statements."
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/var...ric-Sun-revolves-around-stationary-Earth.html
The story actually came from a Saudi-owned media outlet, so take it up with them if you think they are 'Islam bashing'
What therefore is so wrong about highlighting it?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I'm quite happy to ridicule everyone who says such things. But this is religion v science forum, and "answering a student question on whether the Earth is stationary or moving, Sheikh Bandar al-Khaibari replied: "stationary and does not move." He then attempted to support his argument by quoting some clerics and selected religious statements."
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/var...ric-Sun-revolves-around-stationary-Earth.html
The story actually came from a Saudi-owned media outlet, so take it up with them if you think they are 'Islam bashing'
What therefore is so wrong about highlighting it?
Why do you think the moon doesn't spin similar to earth while it rotates around earth ?
Gerald Kelleher
Active Member
In this exceptionally dystopian era in matters of astronomy where they can't even manage to state clearly that the Earth turns once in 24 hours and why it is that way,not even the moon's motion is exempt from the idiocy .
Period of Rotation of the Earth
Who would want to listen to anyone who can't appreciate that each rotation corresponds to one 24 hour day no more than they would listen to a cleric who reasons out why the Earth doesn't turn.
The Christian saying about taking the mote out the the eye of another applies here for that is only a single cleric conjuring a silly conclusion out of thin air whereas Western society (no longer a civilization) follows a disastrous conclusion that the Earth doesn't rotate once each day in an organizational way. Look at the organizations supporting the 23 hour 56 minute 04 second value for one complete rotation in that website.
gnostic
The Lost One
Holy cow!
It like teaching a 4-year-old, who has his fingers in his years.
The definition for "rotating" and the definition for "orbiting" are not the same things.
Ok, let's try this again.
The Earth don't "rotate" around the Sun, nor do Sun "rotate" around the Earth. When the Earth "rotates" around I its axis, meaning it "spins". And when the Sun "rotates", it rotates on its own axis.
The correct term for one object moving around another object, is "orbit", not "rotate".
Let me give two examples below, in which one of them is the correct sentence for the word ORBIT:
- The moon is rotating around the Earth.
- The moon is orbiting around the Earth.
Have you ever spin a coin on a table, using your finger and thumb? I used do that a lot when I was a kid. Here is another 2 examples, with the correct usage of the word - ROTATE:
- I orbited a coin with my fingers, so that the coin spins.
- I rotated a coin with my fingers, so that the coin spins.
Again, the first sentence, using "orbited", is incorrect.
When the Earth is "spinning" on its own axis, this action is "rotating" on its axis, not "orbiting" around its axis. The earth take 24 hours, to rotate one complete cycle.
Orbiting is when the Earth move around the sun, which take one whole year to travel, or about 365 days.
You need to know and learn, that rotate and orbit are not synonymous to each other, because they have different definitions or meaning.
Not all object that rotate, will orbit around another object. (Like my potter's wheel example in my previous reply. Another example is a compass that will spin (or rotate) until the need is pointing north; the compass need will rotate, not orbiting.)
And not all object that orbit around another object, will rotate on its own axis. (For instance, the moon orbited around the Earth, but the moon itself, never rotate or spin on its own axis. This is the reason why we always see the same face of the moon; we never get to see the other side of the moon, unless we are on spaceship and fly to the other side.)
Learn to use the right words, Union, because you are sounding uneducated, whenever you reply here.
But you are not the only Muslims here, who don't understand the difference between rotate and orbit.
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Gerald Kelleher
Active Member
gnostic
The Lost One
I am trying to explain to Union and other Muslims here, the differences between "orbiting" and "rotating", as 2 different actions and having 2 different meanings. They are not synonymous.
I am not trying to give the exact time in second or milli-seconds of the Earth's rotation.
You do understand the differences between rotating and orbiting, don't you? If you do, perhaps you can explain it better than I can, because Muslims like Union and FearGod apparently don't know the differences.
Gerald Kelleher
Active Member
The 'solar vs sidereal' reasoning is as dumb as the clerics insofar as it ends with the wrong value for one complete rotation consistent with the 24 hour day and the Lat/Long system.
Read it again -
Period of Rotation of the Earth
No point pointing out the silly reasoning of a cleric when there are some notable organizations out there plugging the wrong facts at the most basic level imaginable.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
What a silly point ?
This is one statement from Nasa
The learners will view the planets in the solar system rotating around the sun. they will also list the types of objects that comprise the solar system.
The Solar System and Beyond | NASA
Gerald Kelleher
Active Member
Rotation and orbital motion are two very distinct motions
The Earth rotates daily with an intrinsic maximum equatorial speed which reduces across latitudes towards either poles.
All parts of the Earth orbit the Sun at the same speed at any given moment (ignoring variations across an orbital period noted by Kepler).
You cannot interchange one with motion with the other and with good reason because the confusion led to one of the most astonishing claims ever .