Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

[Father Heathen]

No one said homosexuality but homosexual sex. A practice just like a heterosexual sex. How come they are not the same?

As it has already been explained once before, they are not the same because rape and pedophilia are wrong because they obviously victimize and violate the rights of innocent people, whereas homosexual relationships between consenting adults obviously do not.

Or perhaps I was put on ignore to shelter their fragile beliefs.

 

[Sahar]

Yes it is exactly like heterosexual sex, except it is between people of the same sex. So what is your problem with it?

My problem with it is not my point at all, and it wasn't a part of the discussion. Oh, you are doing a very good job at evading my questions.

Again;
You said that saying adultery (i.e illegal heterosexual sex)is punishable, is not a hate speech. But saying illegal homosexual sex is punishable, is a hate speech, right? I asked you; what would be the difference in that context between illegal homosexual sex and illegal heterosexual sex?

 

[Sahar]

As it has already been explained once before, they are not the same because rape and pedophilia are wrong because they obviously victimize and violate the rights of innocent people, whereas homosexual relationships between consenting adults obviously do not.

Or perhaps I was put on ignore to shelter their fragile beliefs.

This is not the issue. The reasoning behind why this or that is wrong or not, is not the issue here. The issue here is if I should be free to express my opinion if this or that practice is a crime or not. Just like you can do it. You say practice X and Y are not crimes. And you can say it freely. Do I have the right to voice the opposite opinion to yours and saying no they are crimes?

 

[Darkness]

My problem with it is not my point at all, and it wasn't a part of the discussion. Oh, you are doing a very good job at evading my questions.

Again;
You said that saying adultery (i.e illegal heterosexual sex)is punishable, is not a hate speech. But saying illegal homosexual sex is punishable, is a hate speech, right? I asked you; what would be the difference in that context between illegal homosexual sex and illegal heterosexual sex?

For the record, anybody who advocates the death-penalty for adultery has lost touch with reality, and their freaking mind.

 

[Darkness]

This is not the issue. The reasoning behind why this or that is wrong or not, is not the issue here. The issue here is if I should be free to express my opinion if this or that practice is a crime or not. Just like you can do it. You say practice X and Y are not crimes. And you can say it freely. Do I have the right to voice the opposite opinion to yours and saying no they are crimes?

I am honestly not sure if I believe you should be able to publicly proclaim that all homosexuals should be put to death. I haven't decided my positions on hate speech and their legality. However, let me ask you this. Do you think I should have the legal right to burn the Qur'an in my front yard, if it is a demonstration of free expression and my feelings about fundamentalist Islam? You obviously support free speech, so it's okay if I do it?

*lights match*

 

[Aquitaine]

I personally like to encourage reasonable dialogue with moderate sensible Muslims, because I don't like the stereotype that all Muslims get painted as, y' know the whole violent, bloodthirsty, Homophobic, Mysogynists etc, but after reading some of this thread I still -for the life of me - cannot comprehend how certain Muslims can treat Homosexuality as on par with theft, rape and murder!?!?!

Good God! Sahar I know you're an intelligent young woman - surely you must be able to see how utterly insane it is to try and compare RAPE with a CONSENTING ACT OF ADULT HOMOSEXUALITY!

Please see some sense with this! For the reputation of all Muslims on RF please see sense with this ridiculous homophobia!

 

[Sahar]

You obviously support free speech, so it's okay if I do it?

I haven't stated what I think about free speech at all in this thread. I was merely asking those who brag about freedom of speech, if I can voice my opinions that apparently are opposite to theirs. Got me?

 

[Sahar]

Good God! Sahar I know you're an intelligent young woman - surely you must be able to see how utterly insane it is to try and compare RAPE with a CONSENTING ACT OF ADULT HOMOSEXUALITY!

Well, I didn't compare, I put them all under the category of crime. Just like hate speech is crime , and theft is a crime.

Please see some sense with this! For the reputation of all Muslims on RF please see sense with this ridiculous homophobia!

Homophobia or not, I am not here to speak solely about homosexual practices, why they are wrong or why they are illegal. I am actually not interested in this at all.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well, I didn't compare, I put them all under the category of crime.

Well form my perspective, the way you linked them all together gives me the impression that you treat Homosexuality as a serious crime, just as (or near serious as) Rape, or theft. I just don't see it, I just don't get it.

Homophobia or not, I am not here to speak solely about homosexual practices, why they are wrong or why they are illegal. I am actually not interested in this at all.

I can understand, I mean after all we've had countless debates on the issue. I still just find it such a shame that so many intelligent modern Muslims are so irrationally petrified of trivial stuff like Homosexuality. I mean c' mon! Think of all the real crimes that we have to put up with.

Meh - I'm wasting my time I suppose, and I don't wanna derail the thread. But I just find it such a shame that so many bright modern Muslims are still dragged down by superstitious phobias and nonesense.

 

[Darkness]

I haven't stated what I think about free speech at all in this thread. I was merely asking those who brag about freedom of speech, if I can voice my opinions that apparently are opposite to theirs. Got me?

What you have to understand is that free speech has its limits. For example, I cannot walk up to somebody and tell him I will rape and murder his daughter. It is illegal. Likewise, if it can be proven that hate speech leads to instances of violence and oppression, we may have grounds to forbid it.

 

[Smoke]

For the record, anybody who advocates the death-penalty for adultery has lost touch with reality, and their freaking mind.

That's an admirably concise summation of Islamic law.

 

[Father Heathen]

This is not the issue. The reasoning behind why this or that is wrong or not, is not the issue here. The issue here is if I should be free to express my opinion if this or that practice is a crime or not. Just like you can do it. You say practice X and Y are not crimes. And you can say it freely. Do I have the right to voice the opposite opinion to yours and saying no they are crimes?

The problem isn't with you thinking these things are wrong. The problem is when you called for people to be murdered over it. There's a difference. I think Islam is repulsive, but I would never call for anyone to be killed over it (unless they themselves have killed).

 

[Sahar]

What you have to understand is that free speech has its limits. For example, I cannot walk up to somebody and tell him I will rape and murder his daughter. It is illegal. Likewise, if it can be proven that hate speech leads to instances of violence and oppression, we may have grounds to forbid it.

Well, Muslims in here openly said adultery is a crime and it deserves a legal penalty.

Should this kind of speech be forbidden? What do you say?

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, I didn't compare, I put them all under the category of crime. Just like hate speech is crime , and theft is a crime.

But what should make a crime a crime is when an act victimizes an innocent person. That's a far more sensible criteria than ancient superstition. That's why attempting to group them together is nonsense.
Calling for someone to be murdered over something trivial and harmless is not acceptable in a free, rational society.

 

[Sahar]

The problem isn't with you thinking these things are wrong. The problem is when you called for people to be murdered over it. There's a difference.

You didn't answer me. Ok, some Muslim said "According to Islamic Shari'a, adultery is a crime so as homosexual sex and the legal penalties for them is this and that including execution", should this speech be forbidden? What do you think?

I think Islam is repulsive

So as atheism.

but I would never call for anyone to be killed over it (unless they themselves have killed).

The same here but irrelevant.

 

[Father Heathen]

You didn't answer me. Ok, some Muslim said "According to Islamic Shari'a, adultery is a crime so as homosexual sex and the legal penalties for them is this and that including execution", should this speech be forbidden? What do you think?

Saying so from an objective standpoint is fine. The problem is teaching children to adhere to and practice it in non-shari'a societies, to deny the local law and culture. In other words they're teaching children to commit acts of bigotry and violence in a country where it's not permitted. That's the difference. If they want to teach and practice shari'a law, then why not keep their ***** in a country that observes shari'a law?

So as atheism.

That's fine. I've no problem with people rejecting my beliefs. The difference is you would probably enjoy seeing me tortured and executed for rejecting yours. At least that's the impression I get.*

*Edit: Well, perhaps not you personally, but most of your shari'a buddies would. Many, if not most muslims do seem to like calling for death and destruction over the most petty and trivial things if they happen to conflict with their beliefs.

 

[Sahar]

Saying so from an objective standpoint is fine.

What if this Muslim taught children this "objective standpoint"? Should he be forbidden from doing so? What do you think?

 

[Father Heathen]

What if this Muslim taught children this "objective standpoint"? Should he be forbidden from doing so? What do you think?

If they're encouraging children to do things that are unacceptable and illegal in that country (such as violence and bigotry), then yes. Surely you wouldn't approve of someone teaching children how to prepare bacon and brew beer in your neighborhood, correct?

For example, there are instances where european women were harassed and even assaulted in their own country by muslim immigrants for walking unattended by a male and for not wearing a ha jib. If they can't respect the local norms and culture then they have no business being there. That's the issue, a foreign culture trying to impose itself on the local culture, so it's understandable that europeans would be wary of things that openly threaten their personal rights and liberty.

 

[Sahar]

If they're encouraging children to do things that are unacceptable and illegal in that country (such as violence and bigotry), then yes. Surely you wouldn't approve of someone teaching children how to prepare bacon and brew beer in your neighborhood, correct?

Listen, you did say voicing the above statement was fine by you. I asked you what if this same statement and opinion was taught to children...this was my question...I'd like to know your answer, if you don't mind.

 

[Darkness]

Should this kind of speech be forbidden? What do you say?

I would say "no." However, if you walk on the street and hold a rally that says gay people must be put to death, that is a different story.

Listen, you did say voicing the above statement was fine by you. I asked you what if this same statement and opinion was taught to children...this was my question...I'd like to know your answer, if you don't mind.

I argue that the government intruding into a private home causes more problems than it solves. I am not going to prevent a father or mother from teaching their child fundamentalist Islam. However, there is a wonderful lesson we can take from the Soviet Union, as evil as it was. And that is the power of public education and the media. We forbid any schools (including private) from teaching bigotry, homophobia and racism. That is, we utilise the educational system to teach secular values. Through public television, we create programming that normalises homosexuality, and other issues we consider important. My bet, is that at the end of the day, Muslim children will be socialised into the secular system, rather than stay loyal to their parent's values.