Saved to what end?

[AllanV]

If it is 'the very will of man' that is the problem, but god wanted to give us will, then how are we implicated? Ok, I understand as a woodworker, if I screw up a piece, I burn it. But I don't blame the piece. The fault is mine. For god to damn us would then imply that he cares nothing for us as we are.

God is an energizing Spirit.
Adam's choice was to use his own power to energize his own self. He kept God out. God will only energize a Love filled nature.

Man now puts his own energy out with the words. The interaction is with feelings and emotions. Each personality has a range of ability to get into the mind of others where a response is produced to deflect what is being felt.
Everyone produces electric impulses and the chemicals in the brain from the mind to produce sensations and feelings within the body. When someone says something it stimulates a response but it is mostly to keep others out. All manner of personality flaws are being read and who would want to bond strongly with some stranger.

In a new nature of purity and holiness and with God's Spirit energizing, perfect harmonious interaction takes place. This will lead to immortality.

This is what the Bible is relating and it tells what the barrier is and how to go about reaching the goal. But it is uncomfortable unknown territory beyond the natural mind and many will not take it. The goal is Love and is completely unknown because it is deep.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Not all religions preach salvation. Why does a person need to be saved? From what does a person need to be saved? How can a person be saved?

My position is that I'm just as good as any other, and there is nothing you can do that makes you more worthy. So how can one elevate themselves to the status of saved?

Ultimately you are saved from the cycle of death. That is our own doing as we are the Consciousness that made it. We return then to life. Those who lose the most our those who are recycled the most. Perhaps ultimately there is no difference, as each world-reality which belongs to each one of us, is part of the same consciousness of that universe.

As a human being you may well be as good or even better, it is not relevant, though it could be.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Ultimately you are saved from the cycle of death.

History would then show that no one has every been saved. Can you provide an example of someone who has been saved from the cycle of death?

That is our own doing as we are the Consciousness that made it. We return then to life. Those who lose the most our those who are recycled the most. Perhaps ultimately there is no difference, as each world-reality which belongs to each one of us, is part of the same consciousness of that universe.

As a human being you may well be as good or even better, it is not relevant, though it could be.

 

[Ingledsva]

Whatever is not from faith is sin. No one seeks for God, no one does what is good. We can deceive ourselves into thinking that the wrong we do is only minor, but we live our lives in rebellion to God. It is not some balance of good actions and bad actions, but the very will of man is opposed to God and rebels against Him. Before God's holiness and glory we will feel the weight of our sin and rebellion against Him, as Isaiah cried out before the presence of God “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lᴏʀᴅ of hosts!”

We can stop with the first sentence.

THAT IS ABSOLUTE BULL!

What do we call someone that murders people for minor offenses like lifting a candy bar as a child, or swearing at someone, etc? A PSYCHO MURDERER!

YHVH of the Bible, with psycho murder for minor offense, is obviously NOT God.


*

 

[muhammad_isa]

..From what does a person need to be saved? How can a person be saved?

We need to be saved from the weakness of our own desires and ignorance..

We need to remember our Maker, and judge by what He has revealed

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

We can stop with the first sentence.

THAT IS ABSOLUTE BULL!

What do we call someone that murders people for minor offenses like lifting a candy bar as a child, or swearing at someone, etc? A PSYCHO MURDERER!

YHVH of the Bible, with psycho murder for minor offense, is obviously NOT God.


*

Did I say lifting a candy bar, or swearing at someone?

Whatever is not from faith is sin. Why? Because it is inherently a rejection of God. This is not some petty crime but a rebellion against God. Unbelief is the root of sin here, as we reject and rebel against God. It is not merely actions but the very will and mindset of an individual turned against God, loving their own ways rather than God's.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Did I say lifting a candy bar, or swearing at someone?

Whatever is not from faith is sin. Why? Because it is inherently a rejection of God. This is not some petty crime but a rebellion against God. Unbelief is the root of sin here, as we reject and rebel against God. It is not merely actions but the very will and mindset of an individual turned against God, loving their own ways rather than God's.

This is BS! If unbelief were the root of sin, then why doesn't god reveal himself?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This is BS! If unbelief were the root of sin, then why doesn't god reveal himself?

Many Jews rejected Jesus even when He performed miracles before their eyes, because they preferred and loved their own ways. What I meant by unbelief was not a mere intellectual rejection but a desire to follow one's own ways rather than God's. People love their own sin and prefer it to following God.

 

[Thief]

Saved from ourselves and others like us.

Look around you.
This world is going to fall apart.
If we could live forever here on this planet......to what end shall we endeavor?
Peace?

Well ok....fine.
How about we endeavor peace forever in spirit?

Seems to me, flesh is just a means of generating a new spirit on each occasion.
It's a fairly quick process.

Then comes eternity....and by contrast a lengthy form of existence.

What if?.......this life we now share crosses over......as is.
Peace?.....I think not.

Are the angelic going to stand idle and let this chaos walk about in heaven?.......
I think not.

So what are you saved from?.....your self.
With out the grace to walk in heaven.....you won't.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Did I say lifting a candy bar, or swearing at someone?

Whatever is not from faith is sin. Why? Because it is inherently a rejection of God. This is not some petty crime but a rebellion against God. Unbelief is the root of sin here, as we reject and rebel against God. It is not merely actions but the very will and mindset of an individual turned against God, loving their own ways rather than God's.

Not only is it BS, it's indicative of the inherent anti-human aspect of christianity. By following what you are saying, it's perfectly righteous to skin natives alive and burn them on pyres IN THE NAME OF GOD; if even one is converted to believing then you have done led them to salvation.

Committing genocide ISN'T a sin; in fact if god says to do it would be a sin not to. YES I THINK RELIGIONS ARE DANGEROUS BECAUSE THEY'RE STUPID, IGNORANT PEOPLE THAT CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Not only is it BS, it's indicative of the inherent anti-human aspect of christianity. By following what you are saying, it's perfectly righteous to skin natives alive and burn them on pyres IN THE NAME OF GOD; if even one is converted to believing then you have done led them to salvation.

That would break quiiite a few commandments there. We cannot force people into belief, nothing we do can, only God can save them, not us. If people reject the Gospel we are preaching, then that is up to them, only God can save. We are called to love our neighbour... not skin them. Your accusation is a bit absurd.

Committing genocide ISN'T a sin; in fact if god says to do it would be a sin not to. YES I THINK RELIGIONS ARE DANGEROUS BECAUSE THEY'RE STUPID, IGNORANT PEOPLE THAT CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD.

We really will say anything to try and escape God and follow our own desires, it seems. In your caps rage accusation that the religious are ignorant, have you not just pointed out your own ignorance?

 

[Nooj]

No, Adam severed the relationship. Even if the Christian religion proves to be true, I refuse to acknowledge the sins of my great-great-great-great ad-infinitum grandfather.

i think that to acknowledge our own personal sins, the innumerable ways we hurt other people, is enough to take up all our time.

as it is, there is a life or death cut throat struggle within myself to live in the way of god, does god expect me to be my brother's keeper? should i burden myself with worry about the sins of my fathers and mothers, the sins of others, the sins of the past? who are they to me?

bur the past is never past, and always presents itself to us. and though it might feel safer to think that we are islands to ourselves, all creation is in a relationship of interdependance with itself and god. who we are depends on who went before. their deeds wove together the world. just like we will do for the next generation.

i need not know about the fall of the first man, when i know about the fall of all mankind in the timeless present. i need not know about an exile from eden, when i know for certain that i'm in exile from god in my life. even without any awareness of a historical or mythological exile from eden or a primordial fall, the reality of sin exists for me right now and right here.

today i am adam and eve and i'm falling from god. that is what the opening account of the book of genesis says to me.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Saved from ourselves and others like us.

Look around you.
This world is going to fall apart.

Absolutly; 500 BC Plato said the same thing. You and he are perceptive in this area. Any day now!

If we could live forever here on this planet......to what end shall we endeavor?

So there's no point to existence unless life on this planet ends? You are saying that unless we destroy ourselves, there's no point? If that i so why don't you move on to and let those of us who appreciate life on earth here and now work to make it a better place.

Peace?

Well ok....fine.
How about we endeavor peace forever in spirit?

Ok, listen to me, this is important. We work on peace here and now because we would rather look at the ugly reality and actually try to help, as opposed to deluding ourselves that it's in god's hands and everything will be ok in that great cook-aid dispenser in the sky. We know the situation is not always great, we know we can be part of the problem or part of the solution. We know that working for peace has a greater positive effect then getting on our hands and knees and praying for peace. I know you will disagree with the last statement, you you just stated that, in your view, peace is pretty much an impossibility. So..you can pretend like it's god's hands..pray for peace..and in reality in your mind you are waiting on the single worst catastrophe in human history to save us...

Seems to me, flesh is just a means of generating a new spirit on each occasion.
It's a fairly quick process.

It's a fairly quick process, spoken as if you have every even once observed the generation of a new spirit???

Then comes eternity....and by contrast a lengthy form of existence.

Again you are drinking cool-aid brother.

What if?.......this life we now share crosses over......as is.
Peace?.....I think not.

Are the angelic going to stand idle and let this chaos walk about in heaven?.......
I think not.

So what are you saved from?.....your self.
With out the grace to walk in heaven.....you won't.

lol, without heaven actually existing, you won't! Here's the thing, even if there is a god and a heaven, it will not be the one's banging on the door that get in. It will not be the one's living their entire life with that goal in mind that get in. It will be the people who ignore the possibility and struggle to make this world as perfect as possible who get in.

It will be people who couldn'd care less if god came here to help or not that get in, the one's who take it on themselves to do what's best for here and now, without regard to speculative metaphysics, who get in.

 

[Nietzsche]

i think that to acknowledge our own personal sins, the innumerable ways we hurt other people, is enough to take up all our time.

as it is, there is a life or death cut throat struggle within myself to live in the way of god, does god expect me to be my brother's keeper?

i came to the conclusion that i need not know about the fall of the first man, when i know about the fall of all mankind in the timeless present. i need not know about an exile from eden, when i know for certain that i'm an exile from god in my life. even without any awareness of a historical or mythological exile from eden or a primordial fall, the reality of sin exists for me right now and right here. i am adam and eve. and i'm falling. that is what the opening account of the book of genesis says to me.

I will not apologize, nor recognize, "sins" that harm no one. Were I a thief, a murderer, so on and so forth you might have a point. I would be hurting others. I'm not.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

That would break quiiite a few commandments there. We cannot force people into belief, nothing we do can, only God can save them, not us. If people reject the Gospel we are preaching, then that is up to them, only God can save. We are called to love our neighbour... not skin them. Your accusation is a bit absurd.


We really will say anything to try and escape God and follow our own desires, it seems. In your caps rage accusation that the religious are ignorant, have you not just pointed out your own ignorance?

I not in a rage, i'm not making stuff up. I'm pointing out that the statement you made is a fundamental tenent in the policy of conversion. You can be called to whatever end...the believe you hold HAS BEEN USED to justify skinning and burning millions of people alive. You stated it is non-beliefs that is the root of sin. This simple statement implies one who believes and skins one who doesn't is not the sinner, it is the one being skinned alive who is the sinner. Instead of objecting to me pointing out the inconsistencies in your thought, why not address the inconsistency?

How is non-belief the sin when the believer is holding the knife?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I not in a rage, i'm not making stuff up. I'm pointing out that the statement you made is a fundamental tenent in the policy of conversion. You can be called to whatever end...the believe you hold HAS BEEN USED to justify skinning and burning millions of people alive. You stated it is non-beliefs that is the root of sin. This simple statement implies one who believes and skins one who doesn't is not the sinner, it is the one being skinned alive who is the sinner. Instead of objecting to me pointing out the inconsistencies in your thought, why not address the inconsistency?

How is non-belief the sin when the believer is holding the knife?

Claiming religion is dangerous has been used to justify destroying churches, imprisoning and killing priests and Christians and sending them to gulags in Soviet Russia. What's your point? Any old excuse can be used for anything, man will use anything to get his own selfish way.

And no, my simple statement does not imply that. We who are saved also realise we are deserving of Hell, there is nothing special about us that we did or contributed to, it is by God's grace alone, and we still sin. Your final question "How is non-belief the sin when the believer is holding the knife" is one based on the assumption that the believer is holding a knife in the first place, and I can find no good reason to think why true believers would be holding a knife to anyone.

 

[Nimblewill]

Not all religions preach salvation. Why does a person need to be saved? From what does a person need to be saved? How can a person be saved?

My position is that I'm just as good as any other, and there is nothing you can do that makes you more worthy. So how can one elevate themselves to the status of saved?

Saved from this present evil age. I don't have to let it control who I am. I am not what you or society say I am. Think of it this way. Like a saved document. A document of truth. I can't be altered, edited or deleted. I am who God says I am. I don't have to struggle or fight to be anything. I am saved.

 

[Nimblewill]

Claiming religion is dangerous has been used to justify destroying churches, imprisoning and killing priests and Christians and sending them to gulags in Soviet Russia. What's your point? Any old excuse can be used for anything, man will use anything to get his own selfish way.

And no, my simple statement does not imply that. We who are saved also realise we are deserving of Hell, there is nothing special about us that we did or contributed to, it is by God's grace alone, and we still sin. Your final question "How is non-belief the sin when the believer is holding the knife" is one based on the assumption that the believer is holding a knife in the first place, and I can find no good reason to think why true believers would be holding a knife to anyone.

Who then is holding the knife?

 

[Nooj]

I will not apologize, nor recognize, "sins" that harm no one. Were I a thief, a murderer, so on and so forth you might have a point. I would be hurting others. I'm not.

there are innumerable ways we hurt others and ourselves. for me today, i sinned by turning away from the help-seeking eyes of a stranger person.

an aberration! one might say. but sin is not just a series of isolated actions that one may commit in one's life. sin is both the reason for the discontinuity in a person's life, and that discontinuity itself. like the weakness in a fabric and the tears in its weave that develop. to imagine that the weave of one's life is good, because it is missing some tears of the size and shape that other people have, is to miss the underlying fragility of all human fabric, and thus our underlying equality with the thief and the murderer. you may not have stolen or murdered today, but in another circumstance, growing up in another time or place, you might very well have. because it is within the human heart to be capable of such an act. and so to be relieved or proud or feel holy because you are not like 'them', those criminals, is a reaction to a false sense of distance that we impose. we are not far apart from the thief or the murderer at all where it counts, in our humanity.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Who then is holding the knife?

Why does there need to be a knife to begin with??