FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Well I do assume it's not as bleak and miserable as you implied, even though you never actually answered me.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Saved to what end?
- Thread starter FunctionalAtheist
- Start date
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Not really! The common notion of salvation has to do with faith, not knowledge.
I don't know how on Earth you read that as implying any threat. I mean what? All I meant to say was that I need to work on not letting myself get dragged into pointless internet fights. Because arguing with people such as FunctionalAtheist is the equivalent of arguing with randoms on YouTube.
Your continued instance of contradiction doesn't make it so. You have no intent whatsoever for honest, charitable discussion, and you well know it. You're interested only in spewing your own rhetoric, and thus beyond this post I have no interest in you or your claims.
Perhaps one day you should consider putting the hammer away, you need not make enemies of everyone who doesn't tow your line.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
There was a separation but it was not the true eternal separation and punishment of Hell that man will suffer after death for rejecting God. God was not separated in the sense He could not interact with us, but our sin prevented us from having a true and everlasting communion with our perfectly just and holy God. Jesus came and bridged the gap, fully human and fully divine, paid our debt and reconciled His people to God through His life death and resurrection.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
All have sinned and fallen short from the glory of God. God is holy and just, the wages of sin is death. Humanity loves their sin and doesn't like being held accountable, and so will naturally scoff at God's decree.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Most have only done minor crap that doesn't deserve a death sentence.
Which would make this God a jerk.
This sin and Hell idea is one of the major reason I don't believe the religion of Christianity to actually be from God.
*
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
Whatever is not from faith is sin. No one seeks for God, no one does what is good. We can deceive ourselves into thinking that the wrong we do is only minor, but we live our lives in rebellion to God. It is not some balance of good actions and bad actions, but the very will of man is opposed to God and rebels against Him. Before God's holiness and glory we will feel the weight of our sin and rebellion against Him, as Isaiah cried out before the presence of God “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lᴏʀᴅ of hosts!”
mainliner
no one can de-borg my fact's ...NO-ONE!!
your implications and assumptions are untrue
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
You explicitly stated that we were banished from his sight forever then that we are never without him. I'm not inviting this is a contradiction, I'm just pointing it out. How can you deny that you contradict yourself whenever the point you wish to make requires it. You continue to call me names and at the same time say I'm the one spewing rhetoric.
Why don't you merely address the obvious contradiction, which I've already pointed out 3 times now? Instead of calling me names please just explain how 'forever banished from his sight' and 'never without him' are not contradictory?
If it's not contradictory, why can't you just address the appearance of contradiction, rather than calling me names?
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
So you have never experienced happiness or joy?your implications and assumptions are untrue
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
I was thinking along these lines last night and it occurred to me that this represents another common contradiction, though you are not stating it here. It is often argued that god is both perfectly just, but then when the discussion continues just a little bit the person making that claim will then say that god can do whatever he wants. If god is just, he can't do whatever he wants. He must be just.
The discussion usually goes something like we are faithless, god is just, god punishes us, it really doesn't seem like our crime is worthy of eternal damnation, god can do whatever wants. Do you see the problem with this line of reasoning?
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
If it is 'the very will of man' that is the problem, but god wanted to give us will, then how are we implicated? Ok, I understand as a woodworker, if I screw up a piece, I burn it. But I don't blame the piece. The fault is mine. For god to damn us would then imply that he cares nothing for us as we are.
mainliner
no one can de-borg my fact's ...NO-ONE!!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Not all religions preach salvation.
Why does a person need to be saved?
Of course, you will get different opinions. Salvation could mean saved from negative thoughts to gain wisdom; it could mean saved from the devil; saved from death by being comfortable with it.. and so forth.
From what does a person need to be saved?
If you want to change your life and help make yourself a better person regardless the faith, you are saving yourself through the changing of your actions and behavior from what you used to be and disliked about yourself.
How can a person be saved?
In what faith? In general? In general, changing who you are by methods that you feel comfortable with and/or connecting yourself with your faith and letting yourself change as your spiritual health involves.
My position is that I'm just as good as any other, and there is nothing you can do that makes you more worthy. So how can one elevate themselves to the status of saved?
I think that's misinterpreted. Those for example Christians who feel they need to be saved demote themselves as sinful beings. By doing and believing this they, by default, want to and need to be saved.
Those of us who do not believe we have a sinful nature, are worthy beings and the point of being saved for something we ourselves have responsibility of doesn't make sense.
I think you'd have to believe you have a sinful nature to know at heart why you would want to be saved. Other than that, if you believe you don't need to... I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you're learning about others opinions?
Why does a person need to be saved?
Of course, you will get different opinions. Salvation could mean saved from negative thoughts to gain wisdom; it could mean saved from the devil; saved from death by being comfortable with it.. and so forth.
From what does a person need to be saved?
If you want to change your life and help make yourself a better person regardless the faith, you are saving yourself through the changing of your actions and behavior from what you used to be and disliked about yourself.
How can a person be saved?
In what faith? In general? In general, changing who you are by methods that you feel comfortable with and/or connecting yourself with your faith and letting yourself change as your spiritual health involves.
My position is that I'm just as good as any other, and there is nothing you can do that makes you more worthy. So how can one elevate themselves to the status of saved?
I think that's misinterpreted. Those for example Christians who feel they need to be saved demote themselves as sinful beings. By doing and believing this they, by default, want to and need to be saved.
Those of us who do not believe we have a sinful nature, are worthy beings and the point of being saved for something we ourselves have responsibility of doesn't make sense.
I think you'd have to believe you have a sinful nature to know at heart why you would want to be saved. Other than that, if you believe you don't need to... I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you're learning about others opinions?
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Mostly this. Thanks for your thoughts.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
There is an issue in that the God represented by the Bible is empathic about the mere existence of other Gods.
Sure there are god-like ones - other persons with power and authority.
But this God declares him unique and the pantheons of other religions to be lacking real existence. Hear his challenge as recorded at Isaiah 44:
"This is what Jehovah says, the King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: 'I am the first and I am the last. there is no God but me. Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! From the time I established the people of long ago, Let them tell both the things to come And what will yet happen. Do not be in dread, And do not become paralyzed with fear. Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.' - Isaiah 44:6-8
Anyone that trust this God are strongly inclined to view matters as he does - that there is only one architect of salvation.
Sure there are god-like ones - other persons with power and authority.
But this God declares him unique and the pantheons of other religions to be lacking real existence. Hear his challenge as recorded at Isaiah 44:
"This is what Jehovah says, the King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: 'I am the first and I am the last. there is no God but me. Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! From the time I established the people of long ago, Let them tell both the things to come And what will yet happen. Do not be in dread, And do not become paralyzed with fear. Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.' - Isaiah 44:6-8
Anyone that trust this God are strongly inclined to view matters as he does - that there is only one architect of salvation.
I agree with that. Just think if evolution is true what would be the survival tool necessary to escape from a mutating degrading species who had devised weaponry of annilation.
arthra
Baha'i
In my belief... salvation today involves both personal spiritual components and social components.. It's all very well for someone to be liberated and illuminated and so on but if they are not working to improve the society around them their salvation doesn't count for much... The days when people renounced the world or shut it out and went their merry way are over.
There are some sick people out there, stubborn and rebellious who will not change and they are pulling every one down into the pit.